Remove the damage from Knockdown

[i will try to fix you]

The problem imo isn't with the amount of discipline items for fighters (this isn't an informed viewpoint, just what I gather); having played numerous Fighters, there is a massive amount of stuff with +AB; but I think certain classes get ruined when KD comes into play, especially when one buffed party can surprise an unbuffed one.

I would be all for the diminishing returns idea, but personally only think KD is a problem in PvP; I would leave it as it is usually against NPCs personally.

[PlayaCharacter]

I like the idea about the EFUSS discipline boost.

Me too.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Knockdown is nice for pvp. However it is hardly the be all and end all. Improved Disarm with a large weapon is quite a bit more powerful due to an ab GAIN of +4 on use against weapons smaller than meduim. Knockdown is percieved as powerful due to its ability to buy a round or two on initiation against a usually unprepared foe.

Now in a fight that is not so ridiculously one sided that knockdown would not be needed to win it, using knockdown wil reduce your chance to hit signicantly and landing one that hits is rare. Diminishing returns might be nice against npcs as would no damage on the knockdown itself. However if a character with low discipline and low ac or poor spell set finds himself within KD range of a semi competant warrior he isn't going to last more than two rounds anyway.

Pretty sure its been saidknockdown can't be made to do no damage before by members of the DM team though. Has a way been found?

[lolmagics]

I think this really only effects the low discipline classes. Maybe add an effect to some spells that strengthens discipline too? +5 for blur, 10 for stoneskin, 20 for greater stoneskin...

Something like that?

[Caddies]

We aren't adding +discipline to spells. Seriously, WTF?

If you are a wizard, you run the risk of being KD spammed. End of story.

[GoblinSapper]

Don't take KD, it's all we got :(

[Howlando]

I added Secondary Discipline as an EFUSS skill. I don't think modifying any spells is desirable.

+discipline items exist IG

Potions of discipline are a bit more common, and I'll look into making them an alchemy product too....

[DollarPhil]

Brilliant, Howl. Alchemy could use more stuff available. I spent ages looking for and guessing recipes on a previous PC, but found about twice as much if not more for Herbalism.

[Udenbur]

I fail to see how this would balance the game. A change of nerf won't be for the better here. It is one of those things that give high AB characters an edge agaist people with lower AC; where people will lower AC are usually the biggest threat for a the classes that pick up KD. I don't see how it puts things out of balance.

[Craig210]

Are you sure about that? Generally speaking the only people with low AC that a kd'er goes for are mages. The rest with low ac are useually high str two handers who will have discipline to resist a KD.

KD is often from my experiance on PVP servers, the way to go against high ax dexers, who you cant hit but chip away at you slowly. A KD on them often=death due to low health.

[Kiaring]

As usual the discussion segues quickly into arguments where specific cases (unprepared vs. prepared, caster vs. melee, melee vs. melee, etc) are blown up to represent the entirety of the situation, which they do not.

Hold Person ends a fight in a single round.

Disarm disables a melee class easily.

KD, used in chain or singularly, is devastating.

Taunting makes a tough-to-hit character a sure target.

Dispeling makes a nearly-unbeatable enemy into a fleeing coward.

PhK, Firebrand, Empowered Evocations turn single PCs or even entire groups into corpses over the course of a round.

All of these abilities, as well as the other 'imbalanced' stuff that exists in EfU have counters.

[Kiaring]

I am in favor of removing all damage from halfling characters as they are too powerful.

[Letsplayforfun]

Hold Person ends a fight in a single round.

No. You can hold a person with buffed AC and still not hit him, and since HPs are superior to what is initially intended in PnP, even spamming spells might not deal enough damage to finish a warrior or barbarian who'll gulp down CSW and not care much.

Disarm disables a melee class easily.

But it can be countered by all melee classes, and other classes don't care so much.

KD, used in chain or singularly, is devastating.

Yes, but certain classes can't counter it AT ALL, hence the OP.

Taunting makes a tough-to-hit character a sure target.

Yet most classes can counter it via concentration.

Dispeling makes a nearly-unbeatable enemy into a fleeing coward.

No. It'll send spell reliable builds away, but melee types will just buff up again using the hoard of potions they have, while a dispelled mage is screwed.

PhK, Firebrand, Empowered Evocations turn single PCs or even entire groups into corpses over the course of a round.

I've used two PhK wands without killing anyone. Pfe+ two saves makes it near useless. Firebrand is countered by cheap insulations. Evocations too+they have a save for half damage.

The main issue with KD is that some classes just can't do anything against it, and when it's spammed, even the -4 penalty is taken away because the target is on the ground.

It's like giving a spell that both holds and deals regular damage, unlimited use, and that some classes just can't save against.

[DollarPhil]

It's like giving a spell that both holds and deals regular damage, unlimited use, and that some classes just can't save against.

A nice summation.

KD is the only trick that doesn't (Didn't maybe, we'll see if we get a flood of Disc pots or not) have an "cheap enough to use on suspicion" preventative measure when you know an possible enemys might line one up on you.  Disarm? Who doesn't carry another couple of weapons, usually for +AB vs werewolves or Risers? Mindspells? PFX/Clarity/Mindblank/Wear a Mind of Slime.

Taunt, Disarm and Dispel are the hardest to deal with but they won't stop someone getting away unless they're very attached to their weapon. I wouldn't say dispel screws a mage in a fight. Depends on the situation. If one of my wizards gets dispelled in a fight, he'll use his own potions, wands and scrolls, because he's saving slots for mayhem-causing spells or buffs depending on what he was about to do, not more blur.

Empowered Evocations are scary as hell but nobody's generally running around with more than a couple of them.  And good luck using them in confined spaces or around non-hostiles unless it's Combust, which may still have that lame immunity cape to stop. All it takes is one of your buddies charging in or some innocent bystanders to make firing AOEs be more trouble than its worth.

As far as spells go, my vote goes to "hostile one guy and missile storm him" for approaching the level of gankasticness buffed Imp KDs can pull, since only wizards and sorcs (and Spells Domain Clerics) can really afford to spam Shield. That though only works against one enemy and it's rarely if ever useful generally, plus has to be prepared. KD's always an option.

[Drakill Tannan]

Given the arguments above, i agree, reduce the damage, make it a full round action, or something.

Can KD be done so that in addition to knocking the target, it gives it inmunity to knockdown for one round as well?