Remove the damage from Knockdown

[12 Hatch]

Would it be possible to change the defense against Knockdown from Discipline + d20 to Discipline + Concentration + d20?

If so, that might solve a lot of problems, at least for spellcasters.

Rogues, well, you're on your own.  Unless you want to also add Tumble into that mix.

[AceOfSpadesX]

I am completely against nerfing it to do no damage. Why should caster classes always have the upper hand against melée classes? As it is, this is one of the only effective ways a melée class can defeat a caster in PVP. High level wizards have a dozen ways to bring down a melée fighter. The fighter has knockdown, which he has to get within melée range to utilze, which the caster can easily avoid by haste/retreat and getting out of range.

Knockdown is not overpowering, and nerfing it would be unbalancing. Leave it as it is.

[DollarPhil]

As it is, this is one of the only effective ways a melée class can  defeat a caster in PVP... Why should caster classes always have the upper hand against melée classes?

...
On EfU, low AB casters have it hard in PVP, unless they specifically prepped for it or get the jump. There's the rest timer, the proliferation of save gear and defensive potions, Seeing pots and immunity items, and the low CL of offensive mage supplies. You notice it more if you go and play on a PW or campaign where supplies don't dominate as much and indeed spells give you the upper hand. If you want effective ways to beat up a wizard try Blindfight, Darkness or tanglebags, or just a clarity, blur, shield  and insulation chugfest.

@Nightshadow
Yes, you could crossclass Disc on a wizard. The thing is though that "useful to wizards" and "discipline boost" don't overlap much when it comes to items. Personally I'd like to see less Discipline items for melee classes and more for everyone else.

[FleetingHeart]

I'm really loving the diminishing returns idea. The use of this skill is great, but being locked down for long periods of time with no hope of resisting can be a real buzz kill.

I'd propose the diminished effect be different for KD and IKD, however. With KD granting +5 per knockdown, and IKD granting only +3 discipline to the target.

[ScottyB]

It would probably be more practical, from a technical standpoint, to affect the user of KD than the victim.

[AceOfSpadesX]

...
On EfU, low AB casters have it hard in PVP, unless they specifically prepped for it or get the jump. There's the rest timer, the proliferation of save gear and defensive potions, Seeing pots and immunity items, and the low CL of offensive mage supplies. You notice it more if you go and play on a PW or campaign where supplies don't dominate as much and indeed spells give you the upper hand. If you want effective ways to beat up a wizard try Blindfight, Darkness or tanglebags, or just a clarity, blur, shield  and insulation chugfest.

Well, what I meant is that in the case of melée combat, the full AB classes should have the advantage. The mage's strength lies in the diversity of options they have, and the many ways in which they can kill fighters before they get in melée range. Being prepared beforehand is an issue of chance. The full AB classes have the same chance of being prepared with the potions you mentioned, as the mage has of being prepared with his spells, perhaps even less because some of those potions aren't very common.

I think that mage's should have a distinct disadvantage facing off fighters or barbarians in melée, and knockdown is one of the key feats that assures this.

[Groucho the Marxist]

There's sort of a difference between key advantage and the ability to stand on top of someone and just whack them until their DR fades. Considering all it takes is an invisibility potion to get that close, I'm not convinced that it's necessary for a fighter to be able to keep a mage on their back to compete.

[lovethesuit]

My mind's going straight to Disarm. You know how with the first version of Disarm, you suffer an attack of oppourtunity? How about it becomes the same with Knockdown?

Improved Knockdown would remove that attack of oppourtunity, but then it doesn't really have any benefit, except against larger creatures.

[Kinslayer988]

In RL you feel a pain the rum when you hit the ground. I think it should be 50%

[PlayaCharacter]

I am against making any changes to this feat, and for the record, it gets used against me a lot more than I've used it against others.

[johanmaxon]

It should stay as it is. A greataxe hit still hurts as hell, even if it is swinged from the side to knock you down!

[Vendayan]

It's bad enough that you can watch a halfling KD an orc right now with a dagger.  If he can somehow do such a pansy blow that it doesn't even damage the halforc yet still puts his ass on the ground, it's just going to be that much more lame.  The only way it should really happen to begin with is if said halfling managed to hamstring the orc or rupture some groin.

IMO, the only time KD should ever do 0 damage is from a non lethal unarmed attack.  Perhaps some sort of tumbling check could be applied to break the fall for 50% damage from other forms of attacks as well.

[Twelve]

I am for leaving it as it is.
 
Is this really a problem amongst our player-base that in PvP we have those that spam knock-down?
 
It is a good opening move to start a fight... after that... meh.

[UrkoNeedsAStiffDrink]

KD spammers do exist. But as a DM has stated, its not against the rules.

[lovethesuit]

More discipline potions, more items with discipline.

Is it possible to make Discipline a class skill for every class?

OR!

Can an EFUSS skill be added that boosts Discipline?