Beef up Conjuration Duration

[LackofCertainty]

I was doing my best to read the whole thread, but after hitting a couple walls of text my will was crushed.


My thoughts on Summoning: (as a person who played a conjuration specialist wizard)

Summoning is disappointing.

Please hear me out.  Summoning is powerful and extremely useful and all, but it's disappointing to see that any random cleric can be better at conjuring than a conjuration specialist provided that the cleric takes an elemental domain. (Generally, elementals are what you -want- to summon as a conjurer, since they seem to be the best summons overall, so letting clerics freely summon them makes clerics the best summoners.)

Yes, in theory Marin could summon any of the elementals that the clerics pull, but in order to do so, she'd blow through her reagents so fast that it's not realistic to even suggest it.  In practice, Marin's stuck summoning crappy beetles and spiders most of the time, and then she can toss out one elemental for a boss fight, while the clerics toss out their Elementals, like candy from a float.

Maybe let Conjuration Specialist Wizards pick their own default summoning theme?  I.E. I could pick Earth Elemental as the summoning theme for Marin, then I could still use reagents to summon other things, but Marin's "normal" summon would be an earth elemental.  At least that way conjurers would be able to compete with any given Cleric at summoning. :???:



Back on topic, Summon duration is -perfectly- fine as is.  A summon lasts for about a battle, which is balanced.   You're summoning a -temporary- meat shield/damage dealer/caster/whatever, not a semi-permanent pet.  Again this is the perspective of the player of a conjuration specialist wizard.  If I'm happy with summon durations, you should be too! >_>

[MisterPAIN]

I am for it, It's a minor change and will have a positive impact, not negative.

Instead of listing what wizards can, list what wizards can't.

Melee.

If you are going to make a rebuttal to my post that you seemed to read, I'd appreciate it if you actually didn't post to the contrary because this would be considered to a major change in the environment and not a minor one as I took quite some time making that clear which you seemed to overlook entirely.  LTS's suggestion I would consider to be a minor positive change, not Cruzel's 1+3 turns.  Please note that turn =/= round.

Oh, and wizards have always been capable of melee, they just rely on spells to do it.  I find it ridiculous that you would say otherwise since I two-manned old EfU troglodytes with my generalist with your Gargagos cleric.  AKMatt's agent was a transmuter melee wizard and did just fine save for attempting to solo-tank trolls, other overconfident actions, and bad luck.

[MisterPAIN]

Yes, in theory Marin could summon any of the elementals that the clerics pull, but in order to do so, she'd blow through her reagents so fast that it's not realistic to even suggest it.

Technically, this could just be fixed by more regent drops, which I suggest should happen.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

MisterPain-

Sarcastic remarks will get you no where. Two manning Troglodytes was a feat two warriors could do, heck, two clerics.

At the moment, good reagents are low, the EFU setup for this is pretty much gone, and new reagents have to be introduced to fit the setting.

Extending the Summon time won't hurt anyone, but hostile spawns, <3.

[Oroborous]

None of my spells are powerful enough. I cast them, and yet foes still are alive when the VFX is done firing. I suggest they are all increased so they all work in every situation to defeat my foes.

[Gullible Righteousness]

Yes, in theory Marin could summon any of the elementals that the clerics pull, but in order to do so, she'd blow through her reagents so fast that it's not realistic to even suggest it. In practice, Marin's stuck summoning crappy beetles and spiders most of the time, and then she can toss out one elemental for a boss fight, while the clerics toss out their Elementals, like candy from a float.

I'm not sure if this is a bug(or a spoiler) or not, but I know of a deity that gives you a permanent reagent, as an arcanist. >_> I would only assume that others do, but you would have to experiment, perhaps.

[MisterPAIN]

MisterPain-
Sarcastic remarks will get you no where. Two manning Troglodytes was a feat two warriors could do, heck, two clerics.

So wizards are on the melee level of the equivalent of a warrior or cleric as the other half to a two-man involving a cleric or warrior?  I would agree, wizards can melee.

However there is one small flaw in your post.  Accusing me of sarcastic remarks when I am stating fact pointing out flawed logic isn't getting you anywhere.  If you cannot comprehend the difference between a cleric having 399(2394 seconds) rounds (39 minutes 54 seconds) of level 3 summon versus 418 turns(6 hours 58 minutes) being a major change and think it a minor one, well if I wanted to make a non-forum-fitting remark it certainly wouldn't be sarcasm and more aligned to mocking your intelligence or perception.

Now if you will excuse me I will double check that cleric example in my previous post. EDIT: oh snap let me fix those troubling little details of time in nwn

[Goblin Butcher]

Just because your a conjurer, evoker, moocowmaker doesn't mean you need to cast the spells from said school constantly!

I recall one conjurer (actually one of the few conjurers I ever met that was useful) used to go invisible, use a single decently durable conjuration to gather up a ton of critters, haste, then spam fireballs killing the group.

Moral of the story, there is more to being a conjurer than just spamming summons which are designed to be circumstantial, hence the short durations!

[Jayde Moon]

TL:DR the whole thread but isn't 399 rounds more like 39 min and 54 secs and 4180 rounds equal to 6 hours and 58 minutes?

Rounds are 6 seconds long each yes?  I do not know if this further supports your argument or hurts it.

[MisterPAIN]

TL:DR the whole thread but isn't 399 rounds more like 39 min and 54 secs and 4180 rounds equal to 6 hours and 58 minutes?

Rounds are 6 seconds long each yes?  I do not know if this further supports your argument or hurts it.

I was just getting done fixing that up, please hold up >_<
---------
Done!

Anyway yes they are 6 seconds long, and turns are 10 rounds making 60 seconds a turn. The OP proposal was 1 turn + 3 turns * level.

This would make durations like this:
Level 2: 7 minutes
3: 10 minutes
4: 13
5:16
6: 19
7: 22
8: 25
9: 28
10: 31

Summons are currently 3 rounds/level so...
2: 36 seconds
3: 54
4: 1 minute 12 seconds
5: 1 minute 30 seconds
6: 1 minute 48 seconds
7: 2 minutes 6 seconds
8: 2 minutes 24 seconds

[LackofCertainty]

Just because your a conjurer, evoker, moocowmaker doesn't mean you need to cast the spells from said school constantly!

I recall one conjurer (actually one of the few conjurers I ever met that was useful) used to go invisible, use a single decently durable conjuration to gather up a ton of critters, haste, then spam fireballs killing the group.

Moral of the story, there is more to being a conjurer than just spamming summons which are designed to be circumstantial, hence the short durations!

You have a point, but I think it's flawed.

If I'm RP'ing a conjurer, I'm going to rp a -conjurer-, not a wizard with 1 extra spell slot of each level, who can't cast transmutation spells.

Now, I'm not saying that conjurer's can -only- cast conjuration, nor am I saying they'd be less of a conjurer for casting evocation spells, but if you see a conjurer that "spams fireballs" maybe they should have been an evoker instead?

If you're devoted enough to a school to specialize in it, then you'd damn sure be devoted enough to try and make use of it. I try to prepare at least two or three conjuration spells for every level with my conjurer, personally, and I try to come up with situations to use conjuration spells over other options.

I mean... heck, you could even do that same trick you described by spamming Mestil's acid breath over the cluster of enemies.  Granted Mestil's acid breath is harder to aim and probably less useful than fireball, but:
1.It fits more into the mentality of "conjurer" over "Some wizard that has extra spell slots".
2.If you're a conjurer, you likely have spell focus in Conjuration, which means your Mestil's acid breath DC should be higher than your Fireball DC anyway. :p

And of course there's other options too, besides spamming damage spells, like tossing a web onto a group and summoning a deep spider.



I do agree that summons are situational, though, and there's more to them than just ploping them and letting them roam.  As an example for me, I like to cast a ghostly visage on Marin, get into melee with the enemies, and -then- make some summons to kill the enemies while marin tanks. The flanking bonus really helps them. :p

[LackofCertainty]

Forgive the double post, but I just noticed this:

I recall one conjurer (actually one of the few conjurers I ever met that was useful) used to go invisible, use a single decently durable conjuration to gather up a ton of critters, haste, then spam fireballs killing the group.

Was this conjurer of yours poping speed potions? (conjurer's can't cast haste) :confused:


Random thought edit: "Poping speed potions" makes it sound like they're doing drugs, doesn't it. >_>

[putrid_plum]

Just because you are a conjurer doesn't mean you can't use other spells.  Necromancers shouldn't use other spells, evocationist should only use damage spells? Now that is just silly, Naga makes a good point.  This is so not needed, maybe make regents drop more so more themes are open but no longer summons please.

[Cruzel]

Wow, Misterpain you totally missed my suggestion.  My suggestion was

ONE TURN, plus ONE TURN for every THREE CASTER LEVELS.

Clear now?

Good.

This is not a massive change, it is adding a small amount of time. One summon will still not go throughout  the entire quest.  They will just last longer and be abit more appealing.

Maybe let Conjuration Specialist Wizards pick their own default summoning theme? I.E. I could pick Earth Elemental as the summoning theme for Marin, then I could still use reagents to summon other things, but Marin's "normal" summon would be an earth elemental. At least that way conjurers would be able to compete with any given Cleric at summoning.

This is possible through app, or IG methods.  (I've had a PC who permanently shifted their theme before after finding a certain item which taught him how, etc.) However, these shifts are incredibly hard to find, from what I have seen.  But tbh I think an app like this would be pretty minor, and easy to be approved. (Depending on the theme you want!)

[DFTPeeper]

Dear god, extend it. >_>