Beef up Conjuration Duration

[Cruzel]

The topic says it all, really.  I've seen this come up in the past.

I've seen arguements against this by people saying stuff like "If you use reagents you can get summons which are amazing, and make up for the short duration with their strength" , etc.

But tbh, I've used a lot of these reagents. Yes, some of the stuff is pretty ridiculously strong, but they get 3 rounds/levell. Yes they are strong, and they are effective against small groups. But they disappear very quickly, to quickly for a conjurer to be effective throughout most quests.

This gives a pure conjurer a few options.

1; Go sparingly, summon a creature now and then to try to look useful, stretching out your summons throughout the entire quest, but not really doing anything otherwise to help your party.

2;  Go along and summon in spurts when you think you need to, and then just do nothing after that because you're out of summons.


3; After using either 1 or 2,  just walk following your party offering no real help to the completion of the quest. Use your crossbow to shoot things you will never hit, wasting your money on the crossbow and bolts, or b) Play the role of healing using herbs because you were forced to cross class because the main role of your class sucks.


Right. Tbh the status quo is not really appealing to me. I would agree being a healer is a cool role, and they can still do that. But given the effectiveness and duration of other mage spells, other mages being in (for the most part) the -exact- same issue, use all their spells at the beginning, save them, but mostly be useless except for healing and useless crossbowage.  The only difference is the other mages' buffs are still there on the fighters throughout the entire quest, which makes a huge difference. The conjurer on the other hand, once they summon their stuff, that's it, they are useless aside from the aforementioned #3.

I am not asking for the durations to match other wizard's spells. With the cool new multisummon thing, that would be way too inbalancing. I am asking for a boost from 3 rounds a level, to 1 turn + 1 turn/3 levels.  So Instead of a level 4 caster's summons lasting for 72 seconds, they would last 120 seconds at level 4.  At level 9 they would last 4 minutes.  If you think about it, most quests (Around the level 9 range) take alot more than 4 minutes, so it's still not too inbalancing even then.

Please change.

[JackOfSwords]

A slight increase might be appropriate, especially given that you can do multiple summons now.  By the time you finish summoning your 3 summons and buffing them, time's almost up.  Maybe give an extra 3-4 rounds to summoning, to account for a buff or two, and/or another summons or two?

[putrid_plum]

You can take extended spell to increase duration, I don't think they should be increased because frankly some of the themes are indeed very powerful.  Even more so now that you can have multiple summons out!  You can say the same thing about other spells, that you can only use them in burst, like fireball.  That is the thing about mages, use your brain and think when it is the best time to use a spell.

Also you can make wands of cantrip spells to spam, cheap and good damage.  You don't have to use a crossbow you know!

[MisterPAIN]

I've seen arguements against this by people saying stuff like "If you use reagents you can get summons which are amazing, and make up for the short duration with their strength" , etc.

But tbh, I've used a lot of these reagents. Yes, some of the stuff is pretty ridiculously strong, but they get 3 rounds/levell. Yes they are strong, and they are effective against small groups. But they disappear very quickly, to quickly for a conjurer to be effective throughout most quests.

The point of summons is to have a specialized (and sometimes quite powerful) minion at the right time, not to have a extra warrior throughout the entire quest.  I am surprised that you didn't pick up that considering the nature of arcane spells being situational in a limited magic setting and the fact you have had plenty of time on the wizard class.  Some summons can be more effective than some same level spells or possess a quality that has a desirable advantage worth having a spot.  Summons already have an advantage by at the least being able to take a hit instead of someone else and are versatile unlike other prepared spells.

This gives a pure conjurer a few options.

Wizards will always be versatile in the spells they choose, sorcerers can have a greater amount of summons which would compensate, clerics can have their domain theme summons as well as cleric buffs, and druids can get a dominated critter and companion in addition to the summons on top of druid buffs.  I do not see anything that makes these classes as conjurers limited at all.

1; Go sparingly, summon a creature now and then to try to look useful, stretching out your summons throughout the entire quest, but not really doing anything otherwise to help your party.

I suppose magic missile should be issac's lesser missile storm or shoot machine gun style for a while if I had an evocation specialist because shooting a magic missile now and then randomly at something just doesn't seem to be effective or really doing anything to help!

2;  Go along and summon in spurts when you think you need to, and then just do nothing after that because you're out of summons.

I guess arcane casters should do nothing when they are out of spells, because obviously they are incapable of doing anything!

3; After using either 1 or 2,  just walk following your party offering no real help to the completion of the quest. Use your crossbow to shoot things you will never hit, wasting your money on the crossbow and bolts, or b) Play the role of healing using herbs because you were forced to cross class because the main role of your class sucks.

You are right, spending 1 gold per 99 shots on a sometimes quite found and not purchased crossbow is a COMPLETE MONEY SINK WASTE and healing is TOTALLY a CROSS-CLASS skill that is totally bugged and apparently can currently be taken as a class skill HEAVEN FORBID WE EXPLOIT THIS FACT and shoot things with our broken crossbows with 8 dexterity PC conjurers AND WILL CUT OURSELVES WITH OUR SURGEON KNIVES TO DULL THE PAIN OF NEVER HITTING.  Or you could use arcane healing wands, cantrips, max healing skill, and/or have a character with 16-18 dex.  Surprisingly, you can totally have a singular PC with all of those features.

but mostly be useless except for healing and useless crossbowage..

Healing is never useless, and there are plenty of times that a mage with a crossbow can be useful hitting softer targets if only they had some dex, although I like bows better.  This is a limited magic setting, magic is limited and having the ability to have a big fire elemental always on the side in a QA with increased durations seems a little too much like having a familiar that is as good as a PC with the exception of two feats and taking up a bunch of spell slots if you ask me.

[Caddies]

MrPAIN on a tear.

[Nickless]

I agree with Cruzel to an extent. I would like to see alternatives to buffing that make a wizard effective in quests, extending the duration of summons would indeed be a good step! (Not that I'm biased in anyway, or anything)

[Letsplayforfun]

I tend to agree with Cruzel on this one, and mostly concerning mages/sorcerers since clerics can do a lot of other stuff.

A wizard gets so many spells, once he's out, he's got a few other helpful options (healing, mainly). Making loads of wands helps a bit, here.

If he's holding on to the right spells for the right time, obviously it's metagaming. So just to make sure, most take long lasting spells that will be usefull whatever happens. A lot of wizard stuff is very are cool in PvP, but on questing, well, buffing rules.

Now wizards should make up for that weakness through intelligence. But the thing is, PC intelligence is useless in action games, because it's the players intelligence that does the trick. Sure it gets your extra skill points that are nice and helpful (and then again, not so much in quests, except healing). But it won't make you be a super-tricky-intelligent hero even if you've 19 INT.

So bottom line is, yeah, increasing some spell durations would definitely make some spells more attractive in terms of usefullness, if not for god-sacred rp.

[RIPnogarD]

[COLOR="Blue"]Extend Spell[/COLOR]

[Cruzel]

You are right, spending 1 gold per 99 shots on a sometimes quite found and not purchased crossbow is a COMPLETE MONEY SINK WASTE and healing is TOTALLY a CROSS-CLASS skill that is totally bugged and apparently can currently be taken as a class skill HEAVEN FORBID WE EXPLOIT THIS FACT and shoot things with our broken crossbows with 8 dexterity PC conjurers AND WILL CUT OURSELVES WITH OUR SURGEON KNIVES TO DULL THE PAIN OF NEVER HITTING.  Or you could use arcane healing wands, cantrips, max healing skill, and/or have a character with 16-18 dex.  Surprisingly, you can totally have a singular PC with all of those features.
 Healing is never useless, and there are plenty of times that a mage with a crossbow can be useful hitting softer targets if only they had some dex, although I like bows better.

The point was, Yes it is a class skill. But healing is a skill a lot of people take because it is a necessity. Sometimes it doesn't fit a concept that your PC would bother taking the time to learn to do that shit, for whatever reason. They just don't care, they have people to do it for them, whatever.
Healing is not a skill EVERY PC should have just because it's their only option to be useful in a quest. Build based on concept, not concept based on build, imo.

This is a limited magic setting, magic is limited and having the ability to have a big fire elemental always on the side in a QA with increased durations seems a little too much like having a familiar that is as good as a PC with the exception of two feats and taking up a bunch of spell slots if you ask me.

You seemed to take good care in dissecting my post, but you seem to have missed a key point. I am not asking for a major boost, I am not asking for summons to become like familiars, lasting throughout an entire quest. At Level 4, there would only be a 48 second increase in duration. That's hardly going to last the entire quest, chum.

[dragonfire9000]

I personally like this, but... there's an issue.

You're asking for a beef-up for the Conjuration SF peoples, aye? All of them fellows with hooded eyes, tattoos and a purple monkey on their shoulder. Ahem.

Problem: Conjuration rules already.

Not only can you summon a more powerful monster every two levels, you have an excellent selection of powerful spells at your fingertips. List time!

Melf's Acid Arrow: Right when you get it at level three it does up to eighteen damage upon impact, with another possible six after that. And this spell just keeps getting meaner as you level! A burning acidic projectile that sticks into your side and galls you for a couple rounds... sounds like a mother-in-law. ;)

Flame Arrow: Now, this is admittedly a third-circle and should be somewhat uber, but! Right when you can cast it, up to twenty-four damage. That's a boss-burner right there! Then, once you reach level eight and are an EfU:A archmage, it does 8d6. That's ridiculous. 48 damage potential.

Mestil's Acid Breath: Holy freaking monkeys. We all remember this one from the Greater Chosen Arcanists that used to reduce our corpses to piles of goo. When you first get it this spell is capable of doing up to thirty damage in a cone effect. That's the same kind of damage as fireball, just different shape of attack. Hate this spell so much...

Evard's Black Tentacles: You've gotta know somebody with a name like Evard's going to have issues. This spell is raunchy-mean. It paralyzes, does some fairly heavy damage, and has a respectable duration. I'm sorry, but this is an unpleasant spell to run into, especially having little experience with it.

Now, I need to go write a college paper, so I'll cut the list short of "Cloudkill" and "Mestil's Acid Sheath." But I think you get my point. With SF or GSF, some of these with their DC'd effects can cause absolutely crippling effects.

All of the above = Conjuration be teh uberz.

[Cruzel]

I personally like this, but... there's an issue.

You're asking for a beef-up for the Conjuration SF peoples, aye? All of them fellows with hooded eyes, tattoos and a purple monkey on their shoulder. Ahem.

Problem: Conjuration rules already.

Not only can you summon a more powerful monster every two levels, you have an excellent selection of powerful spells at your fingertips. List time!
  etc. etc...

... etcAll of the above = Conjuration be teh uberz.

I am asking for a general beefup of the spells themselves, not for those who take focus feats. The feats already affect the multiple summoning (As far as I have seen!)

[dragonfire9000]

Okay, I get it methinks. What you're saying is that mages are currently just damage-dealing buff-machines?

This is still confusing to me...

[lovethesuit]

I'd been thinking about this too. There's already a benefit to Spell Focus Conjuration in regards to summoning, so adding more to that feat is kind of silly. The general duration is a little low, yes, but most non-buff spells are short in duration.

4 rounds/level would be an interesting compromise to check out on a trial basis. That being said, I don't agree that it -needs- a longer duration to be of use. It's all dependent on caster level, so the simple answer is Extend Spell, or stop being such a low level knewb. Cruzel. You knewb.

[MisterPAIN]

The point was, Yes it is a class skill. But healing is a skill a lot of people take because it is a necessity. Sometimes it doesn't fit a concept that your PC would bother taking the time to learn to do that shit, for whatever reason. They just don't care, they have people to do it for them, whatever.
Healing is not a skill EVERY PC should have just because it's their only option to be useful in a quest. Build based on concept, not concept based on build, imo.

You were arguing that it was a cross-classed ability and are continuing to argue that it is a necessity and the only ability to be useful despite the mention of using other means to be useful.  In case you didn't miss the point of reading above I will list many of the options since you certainly can't be bothered!

-Arcane Healing Wands
-Arcane Wands
-Using items
-Missile Weapons (If having DEX, because it helps to practice aiming while not being able to cast spells trying to become a wizard.)
-Healing Skill (Because the wise wizard might have an unforeseen accident in experimentation and have to bandage himself in his early days.)
-Looking for traps (Search = INT skill, and the adventuring wizard would probably have this to avoid well... death?)
-Pointing out incoming enemies in combat, since everyone else is busy
-Scouting invisibly
-Making scrolls/potions/wands
-Lore
-Hitting things in combat as a flanker (even a 10 str mage can hit decently at fodder with a flame weapon and a bulls)
-Giving orders/advice
-For the sorcerer or even a wizard with CHA, invest in taunt and SF:taunt and you have a pretty useful character if you have some type of protection.

Of course, this is just boring obvious stuff to say and I would only really bother explaining this to newbies on the server save for a particular person that seems to base their argument on having some kind of a low strength, low dexterity, low wisdom, non-conjuration focused conjurer which would be considered to be gimp except for the fact this only leaves the very necessary stats constitution and intelligence for the min-maxed wizard outside of a charisma wizard.  And if you have a non-conjuration focused conjuration charisma wizard that does not do jack shit or bothers to put in skill points in anything that is quite a stretch.  That is not a really decent case for longer summon durations with a possibly gimped character like that and even then you have spells outside of summons and plenty of other possibilities.  So essentially as far as I know this is an argument of "This PC here does absolutely nothing outside of summons, please buff summon duration, please".

You seemed to take good care in dissecting my post, but you seem to have missed a key point. I am not asking for a major boost, I am not asking for summons to become like familiars, lasting throughout an entire quest. At Level 4, there would only be a 48 second increase in duration. That's hardly going to last the entire quest, chum.

One summon from a level four is a piss poor example in the first place since it is definitely not the median or typical level which the change would greatly effect play.  I'm in your post, taking your pure summoner that is supposedly making lots of summons and seeing your argument of duration which is based on one summon.

You entirely missed my point of having longer durations to simply chain them for the entire quest, which I specifically stated "taking a bunch of spell slots" which I would think mean that instead of your misrepresented example of my idea which was your case of thinking that a summon would last an entire quest as my example.

-beginning really edited part-
Level five is the best lowest level example of a medium level and the bonus feat for wizards in addition to level 3 summons which would be typical for a summoner makes this an ideal point.  Also, turns = 1 minute.  As in at level 5 it is 16 minutes a summon which is more retarded than my original calculation based on Cruzel's information given in the op.  Which means a summoner can have 3 32 minute level 2 summons with an extend spell with four l2 16 minute ones which totals to most likely typical 48 straight minutes of a mob of potent summons if they aren't killed which would just be replaced by level 1 summons.

With 22 minutes per level with a level 7 18 WIS shaundakul air/portal domain cleric without extend spell would mean 4 hours and 24 minutes of chained level 3-4 air elemental and about 6 hours 58 minutes with extended spell.  I don't think 1 min + 3 min/level for summons is a good idea and nobody should think so.
-end edited part-

So thank you for emoing overies out with your do jack shit OH I CAN DO NOTHING BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO FOR MY CONCEPT non-conjuring conjurer wizard example and wasting my time.  Even though my power gamed example is a cleric it would be likely be unlikely for DMs to simply extend the duration for certain classes only or simply exclude clerics.  It is also unwarranted that divine summon duration would be inferior to arcane ones in any way so it would most likely be for all classes that can summon if there was an extension.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Misterpain, if you must insult Cruzel, keep it to IRC, this is not the appropriate Forum.


<.<

I am for it, It's a minor change and will have a positive impact, not negative.

Instead of listing what wizarsd can, list what wizards can't.

Melee.