overpowered bent & broken

[Cerberus]

You are welcome to make a new thread against the Perk system, it is a subject off topic in this one. Of course I make no promises that I will even read such a thread or bother to take the time to explain why the perk system is actually very cool and something most players are (and should be) happy that mort took a lot of time to implement.

You proposed this (Healing Hands) and say CURRENT perks are overpowered?

Unbelievable... People see only what they want to see...

Seeing the Drunken Haze and Pathfinder threads brings me back to this perks thread. Sorry, I tried to bite my tongue and stay out of it but I can't control myself...
 
In a nut-shell simply having these "perks" is considered overpowered. By overpowered I mean that any option that gives a higher value than is expected. Overpowered effects add or remove options, but do not fundamentally change the game.
 
Then there is bent options, or in this case "perks". Those perks that can actually change the way the game plays out by giving an advantage to advanced players over beginners. Advanced players can exploit overpowered options fundamentally changing the way the game is played between advanced players and beginners.
 
Last but not least there are broken options, which are options or perks that when combined with other options or perks make something unplayable, puts it into a loop or makes the word infinite appear.
 
I don't see any of these "perks" as broken but without a doubt they are overpowered. And based on the fact that 4 out of 5 druids recommend pathfinder (if it actually did what it said it does, +10% move rate in the wilds) would make it a bent option. Sorry but a 6th level PC of a certain class that mathematically has a +30% movement rate is beyond a doubt, "Bent". In most cases you shouldn't have that until at least 9th level. With that in mind beginner players could be taken advantage of.

All I did was post what the common definitions of overpowered, bent and broken. I didn't invent these terms or definitions, WotC did (they've been around for years).

If you want my personal opinion I actually kinda like the perks. I'm a firm believer in; As long as everybody is playing by the same rules, it's all fair. I feel it's a fine line between overpowered and optimized. Everybody tries to optimize their PC so no problems with me there.

The thing that I don't think you're hearing from me is that EFU:A (like all PW servers) has novice, intermediate and advanced players. I understand too that this is Howl's and the DM's world and we just play in it but the rest of the world tries to keep everybody in the same playing field. On PW servers these same player levels (novice, intermediate & advanced) all play together. The more options given to the advanced players the more unbalanced the player environment becomes. I'm an intermediate player at best. Although my minds eye can see the ways to optimize my PC fairly well, I fail at computer knowledge and all the little tricks, (I'm still trying to figure out where ya'll get all the gold some toss around :oops: ).

Here is what I'm seeing with Morts "perks" (that I like)/(I'm not against them, I'm just questioning the playing balance)... Some perks are way more popular than others. What I would ask is why? Are they being bent? Is it going to make the advanced players have even more superiority over the intermediates, (not to even mention the novice)? Is it going to make the intermediates like myself that already lose in PvP have even less chance to at least hold my own? I'm not complaining about being an intermediate level player, I'm patting the advanced players on the back and giving them kudos. I'm saying the more options you add to the server is going to take away from the role-playing by unbalancing the player levels more than they already are.

I'm just digging myself a hole here. I said my piece and will continue to enjoy the role-playing here and try to keep biting my tongue when it comes to anything that isn't IG/IC.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

You make a good case. Role Play over Build anyday.

[core]

It's not hard to see (or ask) what perk would be good/suitable for your PC. I don't really see the problem, none of them are overpowered.

[Cerberus]

Let me try this...

You have a little league baseball team a minor league team and a pro team all playing on the same field. Now say you change even something as silly as saying you now each get four strikes instead of three. By doing this you just shut down the little league players and made the minor league players fairly pointless because the major league players, by getting that one more pitch, have a much greater advantage.

What isn't considered overpowered to the advanced player could be out of the ballpark to the little leaguer and a disadvantage to the minor league player.

[TheImpossibleDream]

I think he's trying to say that the perks make the game more complicated. But really compared to most of nwn's quirks they're fairly simple and effect very little.

[VanillaPudding]

lol

[Drakill Tannan]

Well, just so we understand ourselves right, i suggested a change in drunken haze because it did absolutely nothing, nor mechanically nor RPwise. I did so because taking that perk is as good as taking no perk from both a RP and PG point of view.

Even if the perk was the weakest one, but made a visual animation that made the PC look reaaaaly drunk, or revitalized when drinking alcohol, i'd be happy.

[Lulzebub]

I thought Drunken Haze was really good when I took it. Play a drunken wizard and you never have to buy healing again.

I mean, just imagine if it wasn't there at all. There would be nothing to complain about. Then you would think all the other perks were awesome. Then somebody would want to play a drunken monk, and they'd ask for that perk. Then we'd be having this conversation all over again.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

[Cerberus]

What I'm saying is...

Planar Lock:
You’re able to sustain the link of your summoned servants to the prime material realm longer than most.
- Bonus: +20% summon duration (also affects charges from items).

The novice player will see this perk and say; "Cool, my critters will stick around longer."

The intermediate player (like me) is going to say; "Cool, if I make a sorcerer and give it one level of cleric and animal domain and maybe a spell feat of (pick one) I'll have a hell of a summoner."

The advanced player is going to say the same thing as the intermediate player and figure out how to include the summoning themes and those sands and eggs and dead fish (and probably other things I can't think of and get told to FOIG) and bend themselves a PC that would make my head tilt.

[Winston Martin]

The intermediate player (like me) is going to say; "Cool, if I make a sorcerer and give it one level of cleric and animal domain and maybe a spell feat of (pick one) I'll have a hell of a summoner."

lol wtf why would you think that?

[Cerberus]

lol wtf why would you think that?

Thanks for proving my point WM.

[Nihm]

There is nothing wrong with putting forth an argument that something is overpowered, or too weak.  Unfortunately people tend to respond as though that argument is an insult against their friends, family, and dead great grandmother.

[Snoteye]

I'm going to put on my robe and wizard DM hat and say this concern is 100% valid. Balance isn't my ballpark, I just jump when I'm told to (if I can be arsed), and so can't comment on whether the specific examples (Drunken Haze and Pathfinder) are too strong compared to alternatives, but you have to question why it's IC for so many druids (who get tracking very late) to suddenly walk faster in the wilds, and why we've seen so many new fat characters lately.

[Howlando]

I don't mind arguments about whether one perk or another is overpowered (arguments that they are underpowered strike me as silly and kind of missing the point, but make these arguments if you wish), what I strongly disagree with is an attack on the entire system on the basis that is in some way unfair to beginner players. The powers these perks grant are in most cases relatively minor, even if some of them may be complex to understand - and it is already the case that NWN/EFU has a steep learning curve, things like.... figuring out how to quest, what quests are good to do, what loot drops where, what the spells do, what the potions do, how to find others to quest, what monsters do what, what spawns are where.... and dozens of other examples... already tilt the game against the new player. You are absolutely right that there is a steep learning curve here, but it's something that can be figured out and the solution is not to simplify the game but rather be super friendly to new players and help them.

But if anything I have no doubt that things like the perk system are more of a draw to new players, something neat to show off and show how in this world they have more stuff to play with than in default NWN.

[Howlando]

It's also not as if beginner/new players are being thrown to the wolves and expected to PvP against hardened level 10 veterans all the time. Certainly PvP happens, but coming from the perspective of someone who actually know how these things go -

It is very rare for people to lose a PC to PvP prematurely. Almost all FD PvP events I can think of that happened in the past months happened between experienced vet players who knew mechanics well enough.

People tend to default to subdue, thankfully, and only FD when the situation warrants - which makes me happy, of course.