Summons with True Seeing

[TheImpossibleDream]

What's that? My toolset doesn't seem to have it, and it's not documented in NWNWiki or anywhere I could find. Either way, anything that works without rolls and counters is a generally a Bad Idea.

It provides true seeing up to 60'. A fireball reachs 10' in radius so. I only recently found it and I'd never seen it before. I'll screenshot the summons ability next I get a chance to summon one though. (though getting a hold of assassin vine oil is not easy <_<)

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Replace true seeing with tremor sense.

It only pierces invisibility, and not stealth.

[Meldread]

If True Seeing is the issue, and players shouldn't have it, then it should be the spell that's changed.  

I can say for certain that slimes do have true seeing.  

I can't say for sure about Polymorphing into an Umberhulk or shifting into a Slime.  I can say though that I've seen players do both in an attempt to detect invis / stealthing PC's.  So I'm making the assumption that it does work.

I can say for certain that clerics with the knowledge domain get True Seeing at level seven.

I have not verified it, but I am also certain that Clerics with the Animal Domain get True Seeing at level five.

With all this in mind, it makes more sense to go after True Seeing itself, rather than to modify summons.

Slimes have True Seeing to represent the fact that they do not have eyes.  True Seeing is supposed to basically be a work-around for Tremor Sense.  

I never considered it over powered, IMO, because I knew that Clerics could cast such a spell, and always assumed that wizards could polymorph into an Umberhulk and have True Seeing at level 7 as well... (Which seemed balanced since Clerics could cast the spell.)

Thus, if there are issues it's with True Seeing itself.  I would suggest that it be changed as follows:

The effects of see invisibility, and +10 to Spot and Listen.  That'd make it a hybrid for the spell See Invisibility and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.  All of which are divination spells, including True Seeing.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

True seeing is modified.

But when applied to items (With true seeing property) it reverts to original form

[Wiggyboy]

I never considered it over powered, IMO, because I knew that Clerics could cast such a spell, and always assumed that wizards could polymorph into an Umberhulk and have True Seeing at level 7 as well... (Which seemed balanced since Clerics could cast the spell.)

The spell as cast by clerics or wizards only provides See Invisibility and Immunity to Illusion Spells. This is documented in our mechanics changes thread.

Umberhulk form also only provides a +10 bonus to spot. This is also documented!

It may be worth going back and looking at the ooze theme again.  Possibly off-setting the granting of real true seeing with a steep movement speed penalty perhaps; or just removing it all together on the lower level conjurations to avoid undedicated conjurers using cheap consumable ooze summon items as detection tools.

[Meldread]

Here is a list of deities whose cleric's would receive True Seeing if they take the animal domain.  They'd receive True Seeing at level five.  

Animal Domain:  Malar, Chauntea, Mielikki, Silvanus, Uthgar, Gwaeron Windstrom, Lurure, Nobanion, Shiallia, and Ulutiu.

Here is a list of deities whose cleric's would receive True Seeing if they take the knowledge domain.  They'd receive True Seeing at level seven.  

Knowledge Domain:  Azuth, Gond, Mystra, Oghma, Shar, Tyr, Waukeen, Deneir, Gwaeron Windstrom, Milil, Savras, and Siamorphe.

[Meldread]

Ahh... >_>  Well that's good to know. :p

I just made a list of all the cleric's who'd be able to cast true seeing.  BAH!  :p

I think it makes sense either to have ooze move more slowly, or simply give them see invisibility and +10 Spot.  My only concern is having oozes lose all strategic application.  I'm speaking as someone who is playing a sorcerer whose only offensive ability is summons, with the summoning theme of ooze.  

Part of the fun of playing a summoner is thinking of all the different strategic applications of your summons.  Slimes are good against wizards who have a tendency to go invis at the very start of a fight, certain illusions are good against those with low will saves, celestials are good against melee characters, etc.

[AntoninD'Erlon]

You can select the ooze theme by default last I checked (two weeks ago?) and they have the true sight under examination even at low levels. Umberhulk also has original true sight in it's current form.

I'm sure the second is a bug and believe the first to be a bit too strong in it's current form even if it's on purpose. They are using an unmodified form of true-sight and have good AB/damage/movement speed as well.

[Razored Aria]

True Seeing only gives See Invisibility and immunity to illusion if the mechanics changes are correct.  It doesn't help see an actually sneaking opponent at all.  

Honestly I don't understand what the big deal is, the See Invisibility part of this spell is the only thing people are talking about, and that is a second level spell.

I think it makes sense either to have ooze move  more slowly, or simply give them see invisibility and +10 Spot.

On this side note, the only reason spot was ever considered as part of an alternative to the normal version of True Seeing was the fact that the PnP True Seeing spell helps detect magically concealed doors and NWN doesn't differentiate between magically concealed doors and secret doors that are merely cleverly constructed.  In my opinion, even if this aspect of True Seeing were addressed, the relevant skill would be Search, not Spot which, would not harm sneakers.

[Capricious]

True Seeing only gives See Invisibility and immunity to illusion if the mechanics changes are correct.  It doesn't help see an actually sneaking opponent at all.  

Honestly I don't understand what the big deal is, the See Invisibility part of this spell is the only thing people are talking about, and that is a second level spell.

The summons have the monster version of True Seeing, so they see right though stealth, no check. Therein lies the problem. The spell was changed, yes, but the monster version can't be.

[Caddies]

Only a select few of those oozes should have the monster version of Truesight. Do they all, currently?

Also, ooze summon theme is going to be changed to EiG rather than being selectable as a default theme.

[Howlando]

First, whatever stats or abilities may be in PnP is (almost) completely irrelevant to EFU:A.

In NWN, "True Seeing" is a spell as well as an item/monster property. The spell has been correctly modified to provide only true seeing and immunity to illusion spells. The item property can not be modified (afaik), and simply allows whatever has it to see everything.

For years the Umberhulk Form wizards have access to did not have the "True Seeing" property, but at some point someone was performing a module clean-up and deleted the custom hide we gave it to get rid of that. It's possible that it still has not been fixed.

If there is an item property (different from True Seeing) called "Tremor Sense" it is not something I am familiar with. And I don't have access to the toolset right now to check.

I will note also that it is impossible to adjust the movement speed of any summon, but the slimes were intended to move more slowly - it just doesn't work.

But all of that is just a distraction from the question, whether the oozes should have True Seeing.

It's a balance question that will be considered internally by the DM team and may or may not be adjusted.

[Disco]

Personaly I hate the way stealth works. I love the fact that these 40/40 rogues can now not stand undetected right infront of my face.

Truesight to everyone!

[Meldread]

Only a select few of those oozes should have the monster version of Truesight. Do they all, currently?

Also, ooze summon theme is going to be changed to EiG rather than being selectable as a default theme.

All ooze summons have monster True Seeing.  Even the first level ooze summons which are totally immobile and can't move at all!

...the fact that the PnP True Seeing spell helps detect magically concealed doors and NWN doesn't differentiate between magically concealed doors and secret doors that are merely cleverly constructed.  In my opinion, even if this aspect of True Seeing were addressed, the relevant skill would be Search, not Spot which, would not harm sneakers.

If I am not mistaken on EfU stealth is considered semi-magical in nature.  This is how Disco's complaint of being able to hide in the middle of a bright room, six inches from your characters face is explained.  

Furthermore, true seeing on monsters is meant to represent tremor sense.  For slimes, they get tremor sense because they do not have eyes.  They do not "see" things they "sense" slight vibrations of movement upon the ground.

[Barehander]

"Tremorsense" should be no argument for keeping a lame/overpowered property on the summons. Just because you have tremorsense doesn't mean you can infallibly detect everything: it should just mean you have a big bonus to Listen, in D&D terms. Someone with a huge Move Silently check could easily step lightly enough not to attract the attention of a tremorsensing creature; not to mention someone who stood still (like a spy in a room would). Even if tremorsense could pick up the slightest of vibrations, there would be no way to identify a light step from a falling leaf or the flow of air.

I hate explaining D&D in realistic terms, so the above is not an argument why Tremorsense shouldn't be infallible. I just want to point out that there's no better "IC" reasoning to keep True Seeing just because they "should" have tremorsense. The Realism Argument is thus moot. IMO, all you need to know to make the call is that True Seeing is lame and a Bad Idea.