Summons with True Seeing

[Capricious]

Just in the interest of what we've been asked.

Summons aren't intended to be equally good, no. But they should have an appropriate balance in the context of the server as a whole. Summons that are too strong, or too weak, should be brought to our attention.

The summoned versions of some creatures, slimes, cubes and assassin vines, have monster true seeing, and this is used to tremendous effect during PvP that I have witnessed. However, the NPC monster versions of most of these creatures do not possess True Seeing as it is possible to sneak past most of them with high enough ranks. I think some slimes do, but the rest certainly do not.

I just wanted to point out this disparity, because I personally feel there's an imbalance here. Once PvP starts the summoner has access to an ability that they basically cannot possess in any other way. Sure, I realize the whole "these creatures are supposed to have tremor sense" argument, but the way I understand it True Seeing was removed from the monster versions for the purpose of balance, yet it remains with the summoned versions.

Regardless, I didn't post this to be a back and forth argument since I'm certainly not the arbiter of balance on this PW. Simply I wished to bring this to people's attention, and the DMs can keep it as is, or change it.

[derfo]

These types of summons combined with some of their other features seem to be particularly deadly, yeah.

[AntoninD'Erlon]

Agree :)

[Meldread]

I think when it comes to issues of balance, it also needs to be viewed in a animation vs summoning context.  I also don't think necessarily giving a direct comparison to monsters is entirely effective outside of a few areas.  

For example, summons have a fairly short duration of one or two combats.  A summoner isn't going to walk around with their summon 24/7 and thus could still be spied upon if they make heavy use of something like slimes.  

That is perhaps the major difference between a monster, which is more-or-less an obstacle for someone with invisibility and/or stealth, compared to a summon which is designed to be tactically employed during a battle.  

Most summons and themes have their advantages and disadvantages.  That is part of the tactics of playing a summoner (IMO).  For example, in order to hit some types of summons, you might need the magic weapon enchantment.  Other types of summons have useful spell-like abilities such as the equivalent of color spray, etc.  Some summons are very good at combat, some summons use ranged attacks, etc.  

Of course, there is a major weakness in using summons that can be dealt with easily that does not even involve fighting them... which I'm totally not going to say here. >_>

Also, I should point out here that one of the major weaknesses of using slimes is that they move slowly.  Someone who is invisible can easily out run them, and someone who uses expedient retreat or haste would largely make them irrelevant all together.

[SkillFocuspwn]

Step 1: /c hostile_all Step 2: Summon an Ooze

It's my belief PCs should never, even temporarily have access to true true seeing due to the grossly overpowered nature of it for detecting spies.

[Meldread]

PC's already have access to true seeing.  Any wizard capable of casting polymorph can turn into an umberhulk, which has true seeing.  Shifters who can shift into slimes can have true seeing.  Clerics with the proper domains get true seeing.  Virtually all of those occur at level seven, so well within reach of the majority of the server.

Just FYI. :p

[Howlando]

Umberhulk polymorph form should not have True Seeing, if they do it is a bug. True Seeing as cast as a spell by a cleric does not allow you to automatically see stealthed PCs. Shifters are very rare.

True Seeing ooze summons is definitely a major perk and bonus.

[Nihm]

Also, I should point out here that one of the major weaknesses of using slimes is that they move slowly.

 
Actually they move as quickly as a pc or any other summon does.

[Razored Aria]

Umberhulk polymorph form should not have True Seeing, if they do it is a bug.

Umberhulks have 60' tremorsense which is why the monster gets true seeing be default I'd imagine.

It's true polymorph shouldn't bestow a creature's special qualities (like tremorsense) upon the caster, at least according to the rule books.

As far as I can tell (once again per the pnp rulebooks), shifters and druids shouldn't be getting a creature's special qualities either, except for elemental forms.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Kill or dispel the summoner, done.

Oh and also in the case of the current summoner, get mediocre spot and listen too.

Sometimes you just can't rely on stealth to follow somebody. If somebody takes the time to prepare a spell that summons an ooze and randomly cast it with hostile all on. Well then they wasted that spell slot for that reason.

Though maybe make it so that only summon 3 or higher have the true seeing.

[Barehander]

Bioware True Sight is stupid and broken. It really shouldn't exist in any shape or form, IMO. Nothing that negates a huge skillpoint/feat/equipment/stat investment without rolls is a very good idea.

[TheImpossibleDream]

A lot of the creatures I've summoned with true sight were using the 1.69 feat "tremorsense 60'" and not the old bioware true seeing.

Though I've only summoned plants and it only seems to be the higher level types.

[Random_White_Guy]

True Seeing is a rather high level spell. Four or Five rank summons I would not having it, as opposed to -every single one mustered-.

[Barehander]

What's that? My toolset doesn't seem to have it, and it's not documented in NWNWiki or anywhere I could find. Either way, anything that works without rolls and counters is a generally a Bad Idea.

[SkillFocuspwn]

Being able to instantly find anybody who follows you, be it by stealth or invis with a single first circle spell (or an item) is majorly overpowered in my books. I can understand certain dedicated casters at level 7 or so getting this advantage but right now it looks pretty mad to me.

And I can confirm Ooze summons can instantly see through invis and stealth.