Remove power attack from fire elementals

[Drakill Tannan]

While higher level summons are supposed to be stronger, i find it that fire elementals are actually worse as they go up. They gain massive damage, but that is worthless considering their AB becomes too little.

The reason? it's called power attack.

Level 1 elementals have 4 AB and deal 1d8 + 3 + 1d4 damage. Wich is quite a lot, level 3 elementals have 3 AB and 1d8 + 8 + 1d4 damage, wich is a fuckload, except that they never hit the target in the first place, taking into accound how more valuable a level 3 spell slot is compared to a level 1 spell slot, it is a waste of a spell.

I mean, they do increse their HP, but they still are terrible tanks with their 12 AC. I don't complaina about that though, leave that as it is.

[Box]

Most of the elementals suffer from power attack and it could really stand to be removed from all of them imo.

[FleetingHeart]

Doing this is actually not as easy at it sounds... these elementals use a different system from other summons.

[ScottyB]

Out of technical curiosity, why is it difficult?

[Drakill Tannan]

Could they be modified then? maybe reducing their STR to 10 (they have 18 ) but incresing the AB by 9, that way they would have the same AB with only +1 Damage while on power attack.

Also, out of curiosity, are summons meant to be balanced?

[AntoninD'Erlon]

Balancing summons has always been an issue and caused a lot of discussion. I don't think you'll see them fully balanced until someone decides to spend hours going through them all one at a time to do that. At the moment though they aren't very close due to true sight, dispels and DR, or whatever other things they have they people despise at the time.

[Howlando]

Summons aren't intended to be equally good, no. But they should have an appropriate balance in the context of the server as a whole. Summons that are too strong, or too weak, should be brought to our attention.

The elemental ones are difficult to adjust because actually they work differently, in that a base form is just "leveled up" I believe rather than there being a unique blueprint for each level/kind.

[Drakill Tannan]

Hmm, well because i noticed the undead summons are incredibly powerfull, but the fire elementals are rather weak in comparison.

Also, when comparing the fire to the air elemental summons, air is the exact same + 50% concealment.

But that is another suggestion.

Back on topic:

I guess i'll leave it up to you if you want to make the new blueprint. I'd apreciate it althouhg i'm sure you have other priorities.

Oh, well, feeling>Mechanial power anyway.

[ForsakenSunlight]

define

You should define, strong vs weak.
 
For example. Undead have a variety of mental buffs and immunities to backstab that already make them useful. So which ability are you referring to? Damage? Etc?
 
I know a few conjurers who argue that do to magical damage elementals are the strongest summon option.
 
Other summons, such as shadows, offer alot of damage but have no real hitpoints.
 
Not all summons are meant to charge the enemy in swarms. Just like rogues, warriors, and mages each summon has it's own use I've found in my own experience.

[Drakill Tannan]

For example. Undead have a variety of mental buffs and immunities to backstab that already make them useful. So which ability are you referring to? Damage? Etc?
 
I know a few conjurers who argue that do to magical damage elementals are the strongest summon option.
 
Other summons, such as shadows, offer alot of damage but have no real hitpoints.
 
Not all summons are meant to charge the enemy in swarms. Just like rogues, warriors, and mages each summon has it's own use I've found in my own experience.

A single undead could fight against 5 trolls and not die, he had an aura of fear that made the run in panic.

A single elemental of the same level deals 20 damage, then dies. (if aginast 2 trolls, 5 would be just dead on the first round)

If we wanted to make them somewhat equal, the elemental would need a huge lot more of AC, (it has 12 ATM) and some sort of DR, while having enough AB to deal sufficient damage to the trolls. Something like 18 AC, 10 AB and DI 10%.

[Nihm]

Fire elementals are certainly one of the weakest summon themes, they're good only at dealing heavy damage to low ac targets.

[Drakill Tannan]

True, their HP is not too high, it would not be a problem but they have nearly no AC. That they have tumble does help them a lot because a singe AoO usually kills them (level 1) but if the enemy decides to target them, it's pointles: the summon is dead. They are also slaughtered by any archers: 2 or 3 rounds, and the archers killed the elemental, due to the low AC. Their AB is fine at level 1, at level 2 it becomes +7, wich is also good, but at level 3 it remains +8, not enough, considering you're chaning a fireball for that summon. The damage remains the same after level 1, with the addition of +1 DMG from STR.

They just don't scale well.

Currently, the AC remains the same, i would say 12 AC is fine for level 1, 15 AC would be nice for level 2 and 17 AC for level 3. Not enough to tank, but will help them survive a few more rounds. Some DI (5% or 10%) would be good so that they survive archers for a bit longer.

The AB should also be incresed for level 3 summons, it is but 1 point higher than level 2 summons. +10 sounds resonable considering they are ofensive summons and their damage doesn't change. I'd love to see some flavourfull abilities on them, such as casting comburst on the enemies, or an aura that sets enemies on fire much like the effect that happens with the fire elemental bond perk.

If level 4 summons turn out to be just +20 HP +2 AB, i'm going to cry.

[N/A]

Reason they suck is because of power attack. I had the same problem with air elementals. The power attacks just makes them useless more often than not.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Couldn't this be fixed by granting the elementals +5 ab -5 damage that way if they don't attack with their power attack they do like no damage anyway and since they auto go into power attack mode the bonus would be +0 +0.

[Box]

Lol. If the people above read this :

The elemental ones are difficult to adjust because actually they work differently, in that a base form is just "leveled up" I believe rather than there being a unique blueprint for each level/kind.

What howl is saying is that the elementals were implemented via hackjob shortcut, using a levelup function rather than making separate blueprints like most of the other custom summons are.  What this means is they have no control over what feats the summon will have when it takes the levels (Unless they make custom package.2das and tweak the levelupfunction to go off them, which might work but I'm not sure, but would also be about the same amount of work as making blueprints for each level.) So changing these summons would require at some point a minor rework of how the summoning system is implemented to either use blueprints for the elementals or to take the new 2das into account.

Given the amount of tedious and repetitively mindless work involved and knowing how much our friendly DMs like the prospect of such - this prob is not likely to happen any time soon. :(