Remove power attack from fire elementals

[Drakill Tannan]

Hmm, could the base elemental be modified then?

If we leave them at 11 STR, then they won't be able to take power attack as a feat on level up, not even when they get the +1 STR from level 4.

In exchange, the base elemental should get +3 AB and damage on it's creature weapon, making them nearly the same as they where before, just without power attack.

One could also increse their DEX to 14, so they would have a decent 15 AC.

DMs would only need to change the base model, no need for further scripting.

[Drakill Tannan]

Following scruffy's advice, i'll bump this and add, that even if what i said above was done, the fire theme would still be terrible. This comes after experimenting with summoning reagents, and realising how powerfull other summoning themes are.

They are really terrible.

Please do something about them ><

Oh, i hear air is terrible too btw (even though when compared to fire, they are trice as powerfull)

[OneHeart]

Air elementals suffers the same disease of Power Attack.
I find that suggestion about lowering their strenght (so they cant pick PA at lvlup) reasonable!

[TheImpossibleDream]

I think monsters can ignore pre-requisites

[Drakill Tannan]

Making a list of all the problems by fire elementals:

1.- Their low AC and low HP makes them useless in any situation where there is an archer. A single brood keeper kills a level 1 elemental in 2 rounds max. And a level 2 elemental won't last over 4. That the AI forces the elemental to attack the nearest target and not defend agains the archer (no matter how much you tap the control tool) also makes them worthless against archers.

2.- Their low AC and low HP makes them totally unable to resist even few rounds within melee range. Even level 3 elementals last little rounds when they are targeted by anything. Because of this, elementals need a tank in front of them before daring to engage any monster, or they will be useless. Because monsters seem to target the weakest target first, this doesn't always work.

3.- If they activate power attack, they won't hit anything.

So basically, for them to work they need.
1) For there not to be any archers
2) For a tank to be reciving the hits before they enter combat
3) To succed the tumble check not to provoke an AoO
4) Not to be targeted by the monster
5) Not to activate power attack

And even then they are not very awsome.

It particulary worries me that they are so terrible vs archers. Fire elementals are agile creatures, i think giving them some extra DEX to increse the AC would be good. Their current AC is 12, air elementals have 16, but since fire doesn't have 50% concealment, incresing their AC to something like 18 would be good. A bit more of HP would not be bad either, 1 or 2 more hitpoints per level would make a diference, especially when combined with this more-less decent AC. They would still be terrible tanks, but wouldn't die. The AoOs are still an issue, but tumble takes care of it, i would raise it to 10 though.

As for their AB, if they can skip requirements, why not give them a +5 AB -5 DMG weapon? That way they would always activate power attack, but it wouldn't make any diference.

Also, giving them some feats might help. Dodge, mobility, defensive roll, deflect arrows, spring attack, etc.

I also think the BAB progression is too weak, i belive the alip level 3 summon already has 2 attacks per round, but the elemental waits untill level 4 to have the second, at +5. Maybe further incresing the levels 1 or 2 so that a level 3 elemental already has the second attack per round would be good?

Just some ideas. But the ideal thing would be for each to have their own blueprint.

[Drakill Tannan]

I'm bumping this. Fire elementals are still less usefull in combat than a chair.

Raise their AC from 12-18
Give them -5 DMG + 5 AB to make up for power attack
And give them movility.

And they will be decent. Not much work to do, either.

[Drakill Tannan]

A house cat could deal more effectively with orcs than fire elementals do. I will be forever disturbed by the fact 2 level IV summons can't go through the tangled woods and live by the end of them.

[Egon the Monkey]

I'm bumping this. Fire elementals are still less usefull in combat than a chair.

This is a clear argument for that Summoning theme: Furniture mentioned on another thread.

[Drakill Tannan]

I was actually thinking about that when i wrote it...

Serioulsly though, fire elementals are very lame. VERY. People complain about air elementals and in comparison, they are awsome. After seing what the undead theme can do, i can't fathom how fire elementals can be so incredibly weak.

There are tons of ways to improve them that could make them unique. Removing power attack and adding some AC would be good, but if they had more HP and elemental shield that would make sence, and would make them quite usefull as non-tank damage dealers.

[Box]

I don't think you grasp the scope of why they suck so much.

Every other summon theme uses a blueprint resref, so there is a specific template for each level of summon for each other theme.

The elementals only have one template for the level one, then they are leveled up by a script, which (apparently?) nobody has bothered to make any levelup packages for (WTH, SCOTTYB), which is pretty much like hitting the 'recommended' button when you level up.

Solutions being :

Someone takes the time to make a bunch of package .2das and change the summon script to reflect these 2das.

Someone makes a blueprint for each level of summon for each of these 4 themes.

Both of these solutions are really tedious and take a lot of time, and if you haven't noticed the laziness of most of the DMs who have the know-how/ability to do so... I am willing to bet this doesn't happen anytime in the next year.

[Drakill Tannan]

I do know all that. That is why i suggest the level one summon to be modified, so level 2, 3, 4 & 5 are too, and even if they will still be weak, they won't be terrible as they are right now.

1)Raise their DEX from 8 to 18 and give them +2 tumble. They are supposed to be agile creatures and that gives them a decent 18 AC.
2)Raise their CON to 16 so they have a bit more life.
3)And give them a +5 AB -5 DMG weapon to get rid of power attack

That can't take more than 20 minutes! And it will make them last enough in combat to deal some damage, and also make them able to hit something even though they use power attack.

[Ommadawn]

I do know all that. That is why i suggest the level one summon to be modified, so level 2, 3, 4 & 5 are too, and even if they will still be weak, they won't be terrible as they are right now.

1)Raise their DEX from 8 to 18 and give them +2 tumble. They are supposed to be agile creatures and that gives them a decent 18 AC.
2)Raise their CON to 16 so they have a bit more life.
3)And give them a +5 AB -5 DMG weapon to get rid of power attack

That can't take more than 20 minutes! And it will make them last enough in combat to deal some damage, and also make them able to hit something even though they use power attack.

This seems like a solution to me. Is there a problem with it that I can't see?

[FleetingHeart]

Yes Omma. This whole push for +5AB -5DMG weapons instead of power attack would make elementals capable of bypassing -every- sort of damage reduction currently in game. Making them extremely powerful against... blur, lycanthropes, and a plethora of other mobs.

[Meldread]

I have read the entire thread, but I might have an interesting suggestion.

Modify Fire Elementals so that when they're struck they do 1d4 or so fire damage to the attacker with a 15% chance (with each strike) that the attacker will combust into flame (as per the Combust spell).  

Then give them a decently high AC so that individuals with multiple attacks / those who attack quickly, don't accidentally suicide themselves on them.  (After all, it should be rather hard to physically hit fire, right?)

This would make them rather useful in certain situations, which IMO, is what summoning is all about:  finding the right summon or combination of summons for the job.

[Drakill Tannan]

Yes Omma. This whole push for +5AB -5DMG weapons instead of power attack would make elementals capable of bypassing -every- sort of damage reduction currently in game. Making them extremely powerful against... blur, lycanthropes, and a plethora of other mobs.

hmm.. is there no way to add AB without the DR piercing?

Maybe if you give them a Dex of 30, but -2 AC and remove their bonus, and give them weapon finesse and -5 damage.

BUT

I like meldread's suggestion too.