Detect Evil Is Rape

[Howlando]

Wow, "detect evil is rape."

Paladins should use DE regularly as a tool to ensure they do not quest with evil PCs. Depending on the paladin they should respond to an evil PC in this situation by politely excusing themselves, by outright refusing to accept the evil PC, by warning the party leader, by attempting to interact with the evil PC in question to seek repentance, by stating that the all-seeing wisdom of the divine-gift has pierced the veil of this man's flesh and that corruption lurks within...

I agree that paladins should not be slanderous or discourteous, but also think that some paladins should not hesitate to acknowledge/tell the truth when they DE. Confronting random strangers in the street is of course absurd, but a quest group being assembled is a perfectly appropriate place for a paladin to enforce their code.

But really, for however many years we've had this policy that paladins should use DE at will. It's very easily blocked, it's very doable to play a sinister evil PC that disguises his alignment - just a bit complicated sometimes.

[Howlando]

Oh, and -

And even if you renounce the normativeness of canon material, it's still no argument to defer to "EfU authority" or server tradition.

Actually it is. In lots of ways we're not a canon server.

As for the question, it makes for a better server in which paladins are not off questing with evil PCs and everyone being a happy leveling-up family than it does for your sinister evil PC to have to go to slightly more work to disguise his alignment.

[Barehander]

Yes, but "we're not a canon server" tells what you are not, not what you are. You obviously still need to defend your stance with some arguments, not with deference to authority. Because you the DMs/we the server are the authority in question. You can't defend EFU's stance by referring to the authority of, well, EFU's stance. It is as if you were discussing established laws in the congress, and somebody defended them by saying they are the laws. Duh.

This is my general annoyance at responses like "this is how we do it here." It doesn't answer why you do it and whether you should continue to do it.


I don't care about the evil side of it; whenever I play evil, I have no problem making it public. It's after all only a game stat on your character sheet, and real judgement is passed in RP and personal interaction. All the better if great guys are judged evil by paladins: it makes them look silly and gives more credibility to the "goodness" of evil. In a persistent world, I find it pointless to maintain secrecy.

I am more interested in the paladin side, how paladins conduct themselves. Integrity, respect, honor, good manners, responsible use of power. That's what a paladin is all about, to me. In fact, I'm of the opinion a paladin should reserve his spells and other powers for situations in which all else fails, because  they must strive to serve their god with all their ability instead of relying the easy, externally given power. But that's just one take, I realize that, and I can hardly expect that of others.

Why is everyone repeating "paladin needs DE not to quest with evil PCs"? That's not part of the paladin's code. A paladin must never knowingly consort with evil, and must be vigilant at all times. In my opinion (and I doubt I'm wrong), this does not extend to using Detect Evil on everyone. Even if we've established paladins can do it and some are allowed to do it, I maintain that it's hardly required of them; a paladin should be able to be a successful paladin without ever using their magical powers, and players should be allowed to play such. That's what makes paladins special: they are vigilant and thoughtful individuals, who invest in Wisdom, Sense Motive and social skills so that they can solve these problems in mundane means. A paladin who can't fulfill his duty without magical skillz is not worthy of being a paladin at all.

No matter how much you argue in terms of "they can do it, they should do it", I stlll see it as worse than rape. There is nothing more sacred than the depths of a person's heart, and trespassing is a severe violation of their freedom and privacy. Certainly, not all gods and paladins would think so; they might think it's quite OK. But objectively, in any campaign I'd run, it would definetely be an evil and unlawful act if it was unprovoked. Alignment is up to the DMs, always. So think about it: would you praise a preacher for coming to your home and seeing if you're one of the chosen or condemned to Hell for all time? Who is another mortal to define your very existance with but a glance? It's hubris of the highest degree.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Yes, but "we're not a canon server" tells what you are not, not what you are. You obviously still need to defend your stance with some arguments, not with deference to authority. Because you the DMs/we the server are the authority in question. You can't defend EFU's stance by referring to the authority of, well, EFU's stance. It is as if you were discussing established laws in the congress, and somebody defended them by saying they are the laws. Duh.

This is my general annoyance at responses like "this is how we do it here." It doesn't answer why you do it and whether you should continue to do it.

It has always worked in the part. It has always made sense for our setting. This is how we ENJOY having paladins in our setting. They're not for everyone.

I am more interested in the paladin side, how paladins conduct themselves. Integrity, respect, honor, good manners, responsible use of power. That's what a paladin is all about, to me. In fact, I'm of the opinion a paladin should reserve his spells and other powers for situations in which all else fails, because  they must strive to serve their god with all their ability instead of relying the easy, externally given power. But that's just one take, I realize that, and I can hardly expect that of others.

As said before a paladins detect evil in this setting is an unlimited use day thus to reserve it would be volley a paladin with a wisdom score of 10 or higher recognizes this. It isn't wasteful and is encouraged by their patron sponsor so that he may better fight evil.

Why is everyone repeating "paladin needs DE not to quest with evil PCs"? That's not part of the paladin's code. A paladin must never knowingly consort with evil, and must be vigilant at all times. In my opinion (and I doubt I'm wrong), this does not extend to using Detect Evil on everyone. Even if we've established paladins can do it and some are allowed to do it, I maintain that it's hardly required of them; a paladin should be able to be a successful paladin without ever using their magical powers, and players should be allowed to play such. That's what makes paladins special: they are vigilant and thoughtful individuals, who invest in Wisdom, Sense Motive and social skills so that they can solve these problems in mundane means. A paladin who can't fulfill his duty without magical skillz is not worthy of being a paladin at all.

Wrong. Paladins are given their gifts to use them. To squander them by not making use of them is foolishness. In our setting they are given an unlimited detection spell by their god and this god would be rather upset if the paladin choose not to use it and inadvertently aided an evil doer however minor he may have been.

No matter how much you argue in terms of "they can do it, they should do it", I stlll see it as worse than rape. There is nothing more sacred than the depths of a person's heart, and trespassing is a severe violation of their freedom and privacy. Certainly, not all gods and paladins would think so; they might think it's quite OK. But objectively, in any campaign I'd run, it would definetely be an evil and unlawful act if it was unprovoked. Alignment is up to the DMs, always. So think about it: would you praise a preacher for coming to your home and seeing if you're one of the chosen or condemned to Hell for all time? Who is another mortal to define your very existance with but a glance? It's hubris of the highest degree.

It's not a sacred thing to pry into someones soul on this setting. It would be the same at looking at someone in the eyes. You over-examine alignment justifications of certain actions. If you keep doing that you'll have nothing but counter arguments.

Hell I'm pretty sure I could come up with an arguement as to why mugging an old lady is LG, LN, LE, NN, NG,NE, CG, CN, CE with enough effort.

To summarize. It's like this because most folk enjoy it this way. Its justified because we all play for our enjoyment. It's not going to change and if this weren't an awesome server the only response you'd get from a dm is "because we said so."

[Disco]

*Sniffs* He just looked at me! Told everyone I was a bad person.. I am so sad now.*Sniffs*

Peter the baby strangler.

P.S
"I understand paladins on EFU:A get Detect Evil. While it is the worst design decision ever, especially since it's implemented different than it's supposed to work (instant, pin-pointable, no saves, no potential stun?) and none of the traditional counters are available, I can live with it. Even if it means my cleric cannot use the bread-and-butter level 2 Undetectable Alignment spell available to your local priest everywhere.
"
There is a very simple lvl 1 spell that will protect you.

[Howlando]

I appreciate that you're thoughtfully and articulately advancing an argument, so I'll do my best to respond in kind. But perhaps you could temper your tone somewhat, it's a bit much -

It is as if you were discussing established laws in the congress, and somebody defended them by saying they are the laws. Duh.

This is my general annoyance at responses like "this is how we do it here." It doesn't answer why you do it and whether you should continue to do it.

... when I did (admittedly briefly) explain why the way it is the way it is. Throwing the "Duh" in there does not seem necessary. I'm sorry if I was maybe a bit short in my response, but really after however many years of running this server I try to avoid having to make very long forum-posts when possible.

The major source of our disagreement is this -

Why is everyone repeating "paladin needs DE not to quest with evil PCs"? That's not part of the paladin's code. A paladin must never knowingly consort with evil, and must be vigilant at all times. In my opinion (and I doubt I'm wrong), this does not extend to using Detect Evil on everyone. Even if we've established paladins can do it and some are allowed to do it, I maintain that it's hardly required of them; a paladin should be able to be a successful paladin without ever using their magical powers, and players should be allowed to play such. That's what makes paladins special: they are vigilant and thoughtful individuals, who invest in Wisdom, Sense Motive and social skills so that they can solve these problems in mundane means. A paladin who can't fulfill his duty without magical skillz is not worthy of being a paladin at all.

I understand what you're saying - that paladins should only use their divinely granted gifts in times of great need, and that furthermore "intrusion" into the soul/alignment of others is in some way discourteous or... inappropriate.

I'm just saying that isn't the way it is here. We could argue about canon all day, but since we're not a canon server I'll try to explain the way paladins function in our (or at least mine) vision of the EFU setting.

Paladins are not (generally!) subtle investigators, but are the holy warriors and crusaders of their deity and a code of "objective good." This code of "objective good" is something paladins strive to adhere to totally, to be a living representation of a force of righteousness. This code - this force of "good" - is something objective, defined by Ao perhaps and wholly apart from real-life "grey" morality. Of course we as DMs will try to muddy the code, to put paladins into interesting and difficult moral positions, to otherwise make things seem "grey"... but the source of the paladin's code is absolutely black and white - it is an objectively based moral code.

This makes paladins fill an interesting and dynamic role as a class in the stories/setting of EFU. They are more than just heroes with a lawful good alignment, but rather - have a sort of fanatic approach towards self-purity which tempered with their human characteristics has the potential to make for an interesting character.

We like interesting characters because we think they're fun to play, make for good stories, make for a more interesting setting... and so on.

So! In our vision of the paladin as a sort of super-holy-warrior, we think it is better that they be provided with the tools to keep to this code of not consorting with evil folk. We feel that paladins are so... pure, righteous, intense in their convictions... that having them questing with random evil PCs would dilute their nature, that aiding evil PCs by helping them gather gold or resources would make them less special.

So, to summarize -

Paladins are not limited in their use of their abilities, they are provided with their holy gifts by their respective deity with the expectation that they will use them.

Paladins are more than a LG hero, they are representations of an objective moral code that strive to fulfill their holy calling in a way beyond other classes.

Paladins questing with evil PCs makes the class lose something of its distinctive spark, would - I am certain in an PW environment with a playerbase that has all kinds of different levels of RP experience - really lead to a rash of poorly played, poorly characterized paladins that just quest around and are barely distinguished from any other Joe Schmoe adventurer. And that is bad because we are trying to have a good server that is attractive to thoughtful roleplayers such as yourself.

Is it necessary that I continue?

[Disco]

Yes please continue Howland. I want to know more.

Also this will let me win the bet! Bwahaha

[Paha]

Five years of about same deal, and majority has always come to same conclusion. I see no point to change it in any way. In the past paladins were discussed and studied long and well - and we're still at the same conclusion with majority.

Holy warriors sense evil, simple as that. Get protection for it if you want to avoid it. It is not a major ritual that needs your awesome and hour lasting focus. You go around, hang around people and focus shortly and oy.. There is something strange about. Booyah. That's it.

[Egon the Monkey]

DMs, can we just have BLOCKED BY PfG in big letters under it in the mechanics page? Although, so far as changing it goes, how about having it work like Track? It shows you the location of an evil aura but not the name of a PC. That way you could get evil PCs bribing others to run off as a distraction while they saunter away, etc.

Or...
Thin Sheet of Lead
Small Shield
-1 AC
-1 Reflex
//This item provides immunity to detect Evil/Good when equipped

[EfUA_undercover]

If you have such a problem with this, why not take the little black bottles that noone seems to actuallly care about when quest loot is devided and just dont sell them for the 12 or 15 gold and make use of them.

[Luke Danger]

Per EfUA_undercover.

That, or learn to cast PfA and use it on yourself. The common thug probably shouldn't be able to block DE, but the scheming wizard or undercover priest should be able to.

[Barehander]

Yep, sorry about the tone, Howland. It wasn't directed at you particularly, but this topicful of trolls who don't seem to read posts. (OK, maybe that's an exaggeration again! But let's not point out the individuals.)

I do get your view of the paladin. To me, a paladin is more like a Jedi in KOTOR: you can use your Force Persuade to have an easier time, but you'll get more Light Side points and approval if you go about it the traditional way. Just as some paladin may be zealous, another may be serene and contemplative. It is not a matter of squandering your abilities: it's a matter of spiritual restraint and ascetism. You have the power, and the greatest test character is not to rely on it. I doubt many gods would be mad at this. It is the very core of Mystra's dogma, too: the greatest masters of the Weave must learn not to rely on the Weave. This is where I completely disagree with TheImpossibleDream: he is thinking about it economically, from the perspective of a 21st century gamer who gets these powers in the build. I don't think that's the perspective of an archaic religious person, though. In many historical and pop culture depictions of powerful or enlightened religious individuals, they do not use their powers recklessly, and they don't have a rational economy of benefits where they would calculate the good. Every external challenge is also a challenge of the self. A paladin who does not overcome himself everyday cannot overcome evil.

But I digress. I've been arguing about paladins for years, and it's getting a little repetitive. I acknowledge that there are several justified interpretations, yours included. It just frustrates me to no end that it's portrayed as the only right way, when the game setting and our imagination has left so many interesting options open. I sympathise with the worry that paladins will become watered-down, but I think it happens and has happened even with this classic view.

But anyway: if I'll ever play a paladin, I guess I'll make a special request that outlines his beliefs and methods extensively so the DMs can make a specific judgement on the case and see if I can play it. I could never play the cookie-cutter stereotype, because it's not very interesting.

[Dr Dragon]

Those potions do not last long and if you chug potions of PFG people will automaticaly assume OOCLY and IG "Someone is hiding da ebol!"

Right now for wizards with extend spell PFG is great. However us non  casters who wish to be subtle about our evilness are sort of screwed in addition before we find any items capable of blocking PFG weve likely been detected a billion times so when we finally achieve said items Paladins will find the sudden redemption off. And yes I hate the fact that if I want to make a subtle evil it is ruined by a paladin going. "HES EBOL!"

[Nihm]

A few things to consider:
 
it's already been said those pots don't last long enough, and even for casters, there will be a day when they have to respawn or get dispelled near a paladin.  Paladins also do not have to work to DE someone.  All they need to do is tell the group they'll examine them and anyone who leaves after that is as good as DE'd.  I have seen this scenario often.
 
Suggestion : Derflaro in the perks thread suggested immunity from de as a perk.  A very good idea, although perhaps it should have some drawback as well, perhaps an increased vulnerability to something else.
 
IF detect evil is being used too much maybe it should come with a small xp loss whenever used.  That way you're almost sure to eliminate frivolous usage.

[derfo]

drinking PFG potions: an action you're forced to do in front of everyone no matter what.

TBH though if you want to conceal yourself, then it's probably cooler to have it take some effort.

yeah, if you quest with a paladin then keeping PFG up the whole time while he is sniffing you is probably going to be sort of hard, but the fact it's like this makes it that much more of a prize.

oh and there are items and such already that can protect you from this shit and you can eat them or whatever for easy mode. maybe replace bubbleberries with 'fuck paladins berries' and you can eat them to be immune for 9 rounds to DE