Detect Evil Is Rape

[Barehander]

I understand paladins on EFU:A get Detect Evil. While it is the worst design decision ever, especially since it's implemented different than it's supposed to work (instant, pin-pointable, no saves, no potential stun?) and none of the traditional counters are available, I can live with it. Even if it means my cleric cannot use the bread-and-butter level 2 Undetectable Alignment spell available to your local priest everywhere.

What I find rather bothersome is how some PCs use it, however.

A paladin is sworn to a few things: honor, lawfulness and goodness. This imposes some restrictions on how they should act, regardless of what they can do.

It is quite possible for a paladin to toss around Detect Evil at will. But is it appropriate of them to do so? Should a paladin use Detect Evil on every passer-by just to check their alignment? In fact, is it justified even to use it on a business partner or companion who has given you no reason to suspect them of anything but outstanding moral character?

I daresay it is not. It is neither honorable, lawful nor good to pry into someone's alignment magically for no reason. The paladin is committing several breaches of his code when he does so:

1. He uses his god-given powers irresponsibly and at whim. They are not given to him so he could rely on them in any situation. This is why the paladin needs Sense Motive and Wisdom: to use his good, mundane judgement whenever possible, and only to resort to divine means when necessary. Secondly.

2. He is suspicious without reason. This is not virtuous, it is paranoid. A paladin ought to let actions speak for themselves and not subject everyone to scrutiny at first meeting.

3. He is guilty of slander or gossip if he announces his findings. A person who happens to be evil at heart but has never done anything evil or, more importantly, has never been witnessed doing anything evil is not a criminal. Therefore, it is unjust of a paladin to ruin his reputation and life by accusing him of an abstract "state of mind".

4. He is guilty of a gruesome breach of privacy. Without warning or provocation, often without informing the target at all, he is taking a peek into their very heart. No divine mandate gives you the right to do that. It is not Good or Lawful and it is certainly not honorable. It is perhaps the most dishonorable thing you can do to a person. Here I return to the provocative topic title: it is equivalent of rape, and worse. Not only do you strip an individual of their privacy without consent, you take the moral high ground to tell someone what kind of a person they really are. How would you like a preacher looking at you on the street, and for no reason other than his moral obligation, walking up to you and telling you're an evil person?

Mind you, I don't claim that all these points apply 100% to all paladins. There are different paladins of different gods, and every situation is unique. But I am quite sure at least one or two of them apply to most situations, and therefore you should really think before you act.


Therefore, my thesis is that a paladin should never use his powers without great consideration. Detect Evil, like Smite Evil, should be used when you are sure it is what your god expects of you. It should never be the "easy way out" - the life of a paladin should be challenging. Is your companion truly evil or not? Do you have enough reason to suspect his corruption that you'd be justified in attacking his privacy and looking into his soul? If the paladin stopped to think about the implications of his actions, he'd find himself using his powers much less. And if indeed a paladin doesn't think about these things, he should be quick to Fall.

Am I completely wrong? So right it hurts? Maybe I have some good points, but it's not so simple? Discuss, flame, fall at my feet.

[putrid_plum]

I like the ability, yet I agree that nearly all paladins I find do what you say.  It is highly annoying and is nearly slander as you stated.  Most of your points make alot of sense to me but in the end it comes down to the player and how they handle it.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

You have a point, but here is the thing.

A Paladin May not Travel or Aid any being Who is EVIL.

He cannot do this, uphold his oath (Which said, this oath holds precedence over the others) if he cannot detect which person is good or evil.

That said, there -are IG methods of Blocking a Paladin's Detect Evil-

[ForsakenSunlight]

It is used alot, and mind you I have no idea what the pen and paper intention was but normally I see this:
 
 
Group, 4-5 people, alignments CN up to NG
 
Random Evil person everyone knows joins said group. No real reason to think said person is evil.
 
All know him, greet him, hang out.
 
Random Paladin wanders down and asks to go. (and is never rejected.)
 
Paladin joins.
 
Paladin points out random evil person, and that others shouldn't take them.
 
Paladin gets a quest, other 4-5 go, etc.
 
If this was rare, sure, but I've seen this happen 4-5 times in a single day before. Not that's it's right, wrong or indifferent. Just way it is. Evil gets shiited on alot if the server has paladins. No doubts about it. It involves alot of you sitting in town and not being invited on quests.
 
That said, I always think wiping out all active paladins is the best soultion.....:twisted:

[core]

There are simple ways to counter Detect Evil and stuns for failing your concentration check against really evil characters/entities.

Additonally, you're not prying into anyone's privacy but Evil people, so I think Goodly gods would be pretty OK with that. This has been gone over and over, in any case -- personally, I think DE is fine as it is. Regarding telling people about others being evil, etc, the Divine Class Expectations thread is worth a look if you'd like to read about how paladins are expected to behave on EFU.

[Barehander]

There's a huge misconception here: a paladin may not knowingly associate with evil beings. If they ever find out someone is evil, they must cease all business with them. It is absolutely alright and common for a paladin to travel with a nice, lawful and normal person who's never given any sign of their foul character. In fact, paladins who lead armies probably lead dozens of evil people. They will work with people who've given no reason not to trust them, instead of magic scanning every guy they come across.

When it comes to picking your closest friends and allies, it gets different. A paladin would probably get to know them, interview them, and if he had any suspicions, use his ability. Maybe. But even then, a paladin can be fooled and shouldn't be held accountable for something he had no reasonable and honorable way of foreseeing.


And about prying into privacy: you are prying into everyone's privacy. You don't know beforehand if they're good or evil. You look into the depths of their heart even they don't know about, and decide their fate. Even if they ping non-Evil, you still did it. You defined them, you defiled them.


As for the ability itself: in PnP, it takes several rounds and at first only tells you if there are any evil auras in the vicinity. Then it tells you their number and whatever. A person with evil items on them would ping evil aura. Aiming it at a crowd wouldn't identify a single person from there.

If there are ways to conceal your alignment, that's cool. It's not on the cleric's spell list as it should be, though, which is a bit especially for Trickery clerics.

[Ebok]

I understand paladins on EFU:A get Detect Evil. While it is the worst design decision ever, especially since it's implemented different than it's supposed to work (instant, pin-pointable, no saves, no potential stun?)

It doesn't always pinpoint who is evil. And Stunning happens. (s much FUN) ;) You just aren't evil enough.

and none of the traditional counters are available, I can live with it. Even if it means my cleric cannot use the bread-and-butter level 2 Undetectable Alignment spell available to your local priest everywhere.

What a coincidence, we do have lots of counters! Including a handy dandy level 1 spell called protection from Good. And for any of you FOIGers out there, this isnt a secret anymore. There are other ways as well, but those arent so free to talk about.

Detect Evil was always at will. Its at will because its suppose to be used all the time. A Paladin knows who is evil, tricking them is possible but its not simple. Even still they may not want to work with you, CN rebels arent typical paladin buddies either. However, working with evil is absolutely forbidden by the paladins code. A code that extends of rights to privacy of sin. They are freaking Inquisitors, its their job to read you soul.

[Snoteye]

But is it appropriate of them to do so? Should a paladin use Detect Evil on every passer-by just to check their alignment? In fact, is it justified even to use it on a business partner or companion who has given you no reason to suspect them of anything but outstanding moral character?

Yes, yes, and yes. Lawful good is not lawful stupid. Paladins are aware their ability is not infallible and that pretending can be very useful for certain parties.

[SkillFocuspwn]

You're obviously not completely wrong, as it's all a matter of opinion. But I'd like to make my own points against these!

Also, there are ways IG to hide your alignment and ways that almost everyone can achieve.

1. You say he uses them irresponsibly to find evil doers. Then does he not use Smite Evil irresponsibly to kill evil doers? Does not a Cleric use his spells when he could be simply fighting? The point is, every Paladin is an enemy of Evil. All tools used to battle evil are tools that should be used as often as possible. He must use these not just to go "THAT MAN IS EVIL I SHALL SLAY HIM" but to suss out those who are trying to trick, those who are hiding, ready to strike against the innocent. It is fully acceptable for them to use it on everyone in my eyes.

2. It is not suspicion, it is a taint of the soul laid bare to them. It's not as though the Paladin is going around running background checks and finding out everything that might be of guilt to every person, it's looking at something that, to them, is present. Evil is a literal thing and a Paladin can see it on people, clear as day. They do let actions speak, in many cases a Paladin can come to respect in some ways one or two LE individuals.

3. There most people agree. You are guilty of slander and gossip, yes, if you go around going "JIM IS EVIL DO NOT TRUST HIM! HE PROBABLY KILLS BABIES" but then again, it is a Paladin's duty to interact with evil to stop it, whether warning people against the hidden snake, fighting the big bullies and helping those who made poor choices onto the path of redemption. Few Paladins simply use it to offend evil dudes.

4. Here, I don't think you're right. He is not looking at why he's evil, how he's evil, what made him evil or any of the details; he is simply seeing what is, literally speaking, a little black marker upon his soul. Evil people are literally, physically evil and that can be seen upon them by Paladins. It is not a breach in privacy to see who might be a threat, who ought to be watched, as it would be to protect the innocents. And the reason they take the moral high ground is because evil people are not generally those who have taken a different life choice; they do not go around disclaiming the adulterer, the petty criminal, the con artist.

They focus on those who are actual threats to society due to doing things that solely harm other people; evil are necromancers, murderers, killers, destroyers. It is similar to a repeated offenders list, to know who are the real dangers and who are just not nice people.

It is not an easy way out, it's simply a tool for seeing what may otherwise be impossible; a little help from the Gods to otherwise have a chance to find the Assassin from the Thief, the Tyrant from the Monarch. It is, for the Paladin, a little warning, and in my eyes should be used upon everyone. It is not forcibly unraveling their history and their very being, it is looking on the cosmic database of the world and noticing who's been Naughty.

A Paladin should of course think about the dignity of the soul and the harm in simply going "THIS DUDE IS EVIL" or ganking a gentleman for having a taint, but I think you'll find few don't consider this. But again, a Paladin would not be doing their duty if they let a potential killer slip by because they wanted to reserve some small dignity of his.

My opinion of Detect Evil is that it should be used on everyone; and although the results should not be used to create an IC smackdown upon the character, it is equally silly and unlawful to just ignore the fact you have a tool from the Gods that can be used directly in helping to protect the people.

[Ebok]

I hate faerun morality. :( Real good and Real evil ruins the whole black and gray fun. But whatever its a game for smashing shit, so polarized teams is a good thing.

[AntoninD'Erlon]

Paladins could accomplish more good without it. That's my only argument against DE in general :P

However, since they are oath-bound to not travel with or aid evil in any manner it is a necessary tool.

[Barehander]

Detect Evil isn't supposed to be used "all the time." Paladins don't just "see who's evil."

And to move to a higher level from this gut feeling, I have a canon reference: in the Knights of Samular paladin order, one of the highest-ranking officers has in fact fallen years ago. He is now an evil Blackguard of Cyric. He lives among paladins every day, and nobody has a clue. I think that's evidence enough, but I could probably dig up more incidents from the books.

Antonin: on their oath not to work with evil, see my post above. They can do that if they have no reason to suspect their companions, they simply must not do it knowingly. Obviously, this means they should strive to keep an eye on their companions, but not to scan them magically.

[SkillFocuspwn]

In EfU Paladins can see evil all the time.

And if they tried really hard you can be evil in a good faction, but it takes a lot of effort. Not just donning an outfit and running out to slay the commoners with a different sword.

[Barehander]

What does that mean, on EfU paladins can see evil all the time? It's an ability you have to consciously activate and focus on for several rounds. Why would the standards be any different than in the rest of the Realms? And even if you renounce the normativeness of canon material, it's still no argument to defer to "EfU authority" or server tradition.

[derfo]

There's plenty of ways to counter detect evil, from concealing yourself to confronting the detector over it.

Evil has a variety of significant advantages in general. Detect evil definitely has it's annoying/boring downs, but it's just a necessary part of the setting and paladin class by this point.

Some paladins misuse it, but how many things can you fault for that, honestly?