Apps, Factions, and HOOPS

[TheImpossibleDream]

It's whole lot possible. That's why I said, that if some character is a douche that goes around making people miserable to get benefits for himself, in IC manner you can always try to go to someone else, in the last resort, even NPC. There is no such thing as needing recommendation of everyone. They are all low class soldiers, members or what ever. If one of them favors the recruit and passes good reasons, the two other can cry all they want and leader may still want to take the aspirant in.

Naturally it's aimed that PC's are in control, but sometimes it might prove quite good to shaken them up with contacting their leader.
Or in other case, just earn the respect, not their liking. If you just go against the guy arrogantly, sometimes that's all it takes.

I'm so saidly hardcore in one part, and that is playing and reacting to the characters actions and behavior to the last bit, and doing it in character. If that means going over their head, going to other people, so be it. Naturally it doesn't work for everyone.

Most of the time the response to trying to go around pc's is negative. My characters never "aspire" to get into a faction. They "aspire" to do great things whilst within one. I think thats where we differ.

I don't think becoming a low ranked grunt in any faction should take a massive amount of work outside of the application. Progression within a faction should be difficult however.

[Dash]

Having asked a DM about this in IRC, the answer was - If you are approved for a faction, and it takes more than a week of persuit IC for whatever reason, you should contact a DM to hammer out the situation.

IMO, faction applications are OOC. IF the DMs approved you, even if Joe "oldest member of the faction" Schmoe doesn't like your character, they are just another player. I am not in favor of players being able to completely cockblock another player for something like DM faction membership.

These are DM factions, run by DMs, with members decided by DMs. Sure, there should be some manner of going through the motions IC, but if your app is approved and some player is being a dick about the recommendation, that is not cool.

[Halfbrood]

I remember a particular situation in which a certain Pierre Dougstein was unable to join the Numinous Order for over a month due to PCs shitting all over him. Not cool, imo.

[Goldfishpie]

I am certain most people in factions have agendas of their own and would rather recruit people they could consider allies rather than people they believe will put a clog in their cogs. That said, there's no need to keep people on a leash and demanding piles of compiled reports and hoops, but even in RL, sometimes you need to polish some boots. Certainly this can be done in a way that is fun for all parties involved and when in Sharboneth I tried to make the "testing" process more creative than having them write reports, but as Elmo can testify, it wasn't quite sucessful.
 
As for Pierre Dougstein, since you raised the issue Halfbrood, I remember that he would disappear for days/weeks. It is equally frustrating for recruits wanting to join factions to not find members to interact with, as it is for members of factions to have recruits vanish.
 
If PCs makes your life difficult, go over their heads.
 
I also believe that if the faction is somewhat empty, it is possible to apply to start as a member in the faction, hoop free.

[Paha]

As for the time issues, definitely. I agree that massive lengthy times to keep people hanging is mean. That is something I do not do as a person, so I can't play any character that does it either. If it's up to me, I usually like to take someone with me to see if my character gets on with them and if they are useful in some areas, or hand them a task that I see is good way to find out their strong points.

That naturally depends totally how fast the player is to handle the situations, or if he is on at the same times I am, but I would imagine such is done within a week, two at most. Even in couple days if we are playing at same times.

[UnholyWon]

I also had a character that was approved to join the Old Order, Wyatt Smithson, but during this time the Nightrisers killed off every PC I had interacted with to get my 'Earn IG" PC approval. Also the campaign against the rot unfolded and the character was basically left in the with only application approval and no supporting PCs to post recommendation for him. It was painfully discouraging having put time and effort into the character.

I do remember contacting a DM or two, but was told to continue to 'Earn IG' but I believed to have already done enough to earn. I moved on though.

[Equinox]

Ok I believe perhaps i should comment on this being a victim of this when the sons originally set up.

I generally see the app as ooc, but once approved. It really should be the faction pc's job to get the new guy inducted. However, after tryign and failing for a few days on franco, i wrote an IC letter and nudged a DM or two on IRC.

EiG is subjective, and if there are plenty of active pcs making an effort to induct you then i say its on you to get it sorted.. However if there aren't then you should ask the dm's. They want to see their factions filled too!

[Gippy]

Nobody garners as much hatred while trying to join factions as myself. I have like a 3 page recruitment file for my Spellguard PC. To get a recommendation I immolated a higher level Spellguard PC in the Pissing Crone and leveraged her disguise / life vs getting a recommendation. Why? Because the task she gave me to get her recommendation was: Captured Aleczumberziel.  Even with these really ridiculous hoops I think that it is very important to earn the right to join a faction ICly. It is up for the faction PCs though to make it interesting and not just some really random or impossible hoop. I've heard horror stories of excellent players quitting their apped PCs after they've been given stupid tasks: CLIMB THE MOUNTAINS AND KILL A MIST OGRE NAKED WHILE COLLECTING ICE CRYSTALS AND DON'T USE INVISIBILITY. This is obviously not desirable.

Also, UnholyWon -- Wyatt Smithson was not yet ready to join The Order. He was very much a boy that needed to do a bit of maturing / dogma reading before he was ready.

From time to time there are spies in DM factions. The IC recruitment process is a chance for those spies to hoodwink the faction PCs into letting them join the faction.

[Gippy]

Also: Faction PCs should be recruiting heavily.

-Every wizard should be involved with the conclave.
-Every badass, even hated ones, should be asked by PCs to consider the Armada.
-Every low level chump that passes through The Docks should get talked up by The Sons as a possible recruit.

If they don't fit the faction teach /them/ how to fit the faction. Recruit ICly. Those are the best PCs. Props to Capricious for having a PC take a very meandering route to join a DM faction. There have been very few PCs join factions lately that were not apped for those in advance of creation. This to me is silly, and creates a less dynamic faction and world.

[derfo]

Again, I don't mind hoops. I don't think anyone agreeing with the OP says you shouldn't prove yourself, nor do I think this is the specific fault of anyone within the app/faction joining process. Obviously there are exceptions to certain sentiments and bad shit is going to happen every once in awhile, which is fine.

I have fun writing apps sometimes, and joining factions sometimes. Though, more often recently, I sort of see the actions of some PCs/DMs contradict the desire to fill up factions.

[Daemonic Daz]

I've heard horror stories of excellent players quitting their apped PCs after they've been given stupid tasks: CLIMB THE MOUNTAINS AND KILL A MIST OGRE NAKED WHILE COLLECTING ICE CRYSTALS AND DON'T USE INVISIBILITY. This is obviously not desirable.

Being the one who came up with this. The idea was for people to gather a group to help them ascend the mountains of mist... Make friends, join the faction and rock out. Not just go and solo the mountains like rambo (which some people did >_>)

So long as the goal is tasteful, isn't absurdly hard or will take a long time to accomplish. Be creative.

[Dreadfang]

Make it easy and interesting. You don't even have to like the char but if you think he would work well in the Armada then give him the mission still.

Its not your chars decision to let him in but rather their superiors. If your char thinks they will do well in the Armada but you do not like them still invite them in anyway (And have your character hate him forever during his run)

[Caddies]

What I usually do when recruiting for a DM faction (as a PC) is meet them, ask them a few key questions about why they want to join the faction then set one quick task (beat me in a duel, deliver a report on an incident, survive a few scripted quests with me, whatever suits). I'll then say I'll think about it.

Later, when I hear the application is approved from that player, I usually give the recommendation (unless I suspected the PC is a spy or will become a personal enemy in which case I'll do everything I can to ICly cockblock them joining).

Quick and easy!

[SkillFocuspwn]

I have personally been at the recieving end of an absolutely ridiculous hoop I had to jump through to join a faction, which ended up with me quitting the character because it was basically impossible for me to join the faction.

Make it fun, make it fitting, get to know the character. It's much better all round when you're interacting with them personally than when you send them off to do tasks with a bunch of random people.

[ForsakenSunlight]

If the app fails

There are a ton of hoops and every valid (key word being valid) argument I've heard is pretty reasonable.
 
Yes, the process should involve more ic. Yes, timezones are a pain in the ass when you've apped and you know you can't even interact with the pcs you want for a week.
 
I'd just like to point out getting booted/rejected by a faction is by no means a dead end. I know sometimes it feels that way, and sometimes when you have a character's heart set on a certain faction it's hard to adjust.
 
Still there is alot you can do. Join other factions, become a spy, go on your own.
 
I've been accepted and rejected in equal measure by just about every faction nameable. When I got rejected by Spellguard (after my previous character had been in) I turned my rejected guy into a rival and had alot of fun.
 
My main point is this, you don't "need" a dm faction. They are fun, and if it works great, but try not to put your character on a "I MUST BE IN THIS FACTION TO COMPLETE MY GOALS." I know that's what the app says, I know that's what efu promotes, but the most sucessful faction ppl I know had great goals before joining, and those goals were just enhanced by said faction. Just don't push the square peg in the round whole, as we say.