Apps, Factions, and HOOPS

[Random_White_Guy]

At request of Derf and a few other folks in IRC I thought i'd post this here.

Applying for a faction is already a process that requires time, effort, and energy into a concept. Adding the requirement of IC recommendations is more or less eliminating of the function of apps.

There never has been a "Set guideline" for how you have to jump through hoops to get recc's so this creates a veritable nightmare of processes.

A few examples of things I've had to do now, and in the past, to get Recc's in underdark and EFU:A

- Pay a thousand gold
- Spy on a faction that could kill me if caught
- Spend a week patrolling a hostile area
- Develop an alchemic recipe
- Write a report on destroying Lower
- Collect witness statemetns from 4 PC's in opposite timezones from me

This is just a short list, but it honestly can create a lot of headache. A PC already has to wait for DMs to get votes passsed. Having to jump through arbitrary hoops to "EARN IT IG" is a nuisance at best and a strong motivator to end a PC in a headache at worst.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Earning it In Game forces the player to interact with pcs. but it is a headache for OOC and IC as well...i guess

[Paha]

Not sure what to say. I don't see why this is a problem, as I believe in earning what you get. I don't see why app should automaticly mean you get it and right there. I also don't see how it could be done without application, because the factions pose some level of responsability and it's good to have somekind plan on how to proceed within the faction.

I'm open to hear suggestions, but in my personal opinion, I am not favoring removing app's, nor removing the need to earn it IG. Application is only a notification of your plans for the spot. The IG part is your actual test.

[Random_White_Guy]

Not sure what to say. I don't see why this is a problem, as I believe in earning what you get. I don't see why app should automaticly mean you get it and right there. I also don't see how it could be done without application, because the factions pose some level of responsability and it's good to have somekind plan on how to proceed within the faction.

I didn't say it should mean you get it right then and there. _PCs_ having direct influence over another character in a position like that though is ridiculous.

If a PC says "Do this", and you say "No", it usually ends poorly for the PC and doesn't matter with the faction PC in the slightest.

There are ways to earn what you get beyond having to bend over backwards for other PCs.

[Dreadfang]

I do believe this can be frustrating for new and older players but I believe it is a necessity. You have a good point Rwg but also we must gain bonds and trust with the faction too.

[Random_White_Guy]

I do believe this can be frustrating for new and older players but I believe it is a necessity. You have a good point Rwg but also we must gain bonds and trust with the faction too.

Trust can be gained from the grizzled pallid mask veteran dragging the first-day greenskin into hell and back. In fact being forced to work with PCs you have to -get to know- as you work with them could lead to deeper RP than some bogus screening process and frivolous or deadly tasks.

"Take the new guy to get suited up and show him the ropes in the Sunken Enclave" beats "Please spend four days accomplishing a task so I can write your name on a forum"

[Paha]

That is what I mean with earning. The whole point is that life is not fair. it is also RP and part of the story to face those trash-pouring douschebags, like derf seemingly has been while he's been recruiting. You can't ignore them either. If you feel it's crappy, you can always try and contact NPC over their head to get it done with, or RP it some other way. It's frustrating sometimes, but it's not meant to be easy.

Faction members ain't fun to have around either if they are run over character who people don't put effort into, enough to use time to win their situation over. If they are some two week old characters, people get left out when they go and run out of their time-span and have to deal with aftermaths of possible situations regarding it. My point being, even if folks are needed, if they can't use the time and effort in wanting to be there - well eh. I'm tough in these situations, but if that's the case, then too bad.

[derfo]

"Take the new guy and show him the ropes in the Sunken Enclave" beats "Please spend four days accomplishing a task so I can write your name on a forum"

This is the sort of thing that is unfortunately true more than not. People have this sort of greater than thou or my time is worth more outlook sometimes, and it's annoying.

I think it would be cool if people would always try to take a moment to realize we're all people playing a game for fun. (myself and people I trust with this shit guilty of this sort of stuff at times as well)

Of course we could pretend it's a necessity for some reason.

--

   

That is what I mean with earning. The whole point is that life is not fire. it is also RP and part of the story to face those trash-pouring douschebags, like derf seemingly has been while he's been recruiting. You can't ignore them either.

Don't think anyone denied you don't need to earn it, nor is it a big deal if characters are uncharismatic. So long as they care for the fun of the other player while portraying something cool, it's all good.

If you feel it's crappy, you can always try and contact NPC over their head to get it done with, or RP it some other way. It's frustrating sometimes, but it's not meant to be easy.

No, you can't. A PC recommendation is commonly considered necessary.

Faction members ain't fun to have around either if they are run over character who people don't put effort into, enough to use time to win their situation over. If they are some two week old characters, people get left out when they go and run out of their time-span and have to deal with aftermaths of possible situations regarding it. My point being, even if folks are needed, if they can't use the time and effort in wanting to be there - well eh. I'm tough in these situations, but if that's the case, then too bad.

I guess that's why they bothered to get an app approved. 'Too bad,' the ultimate retort to someone trying to play a game and have fun with you.

[Ebok]

Having been through and conducting numerous applicants for factions. I honestly have to say that the decision was almost entirely occ. It was would I enjoy playing with this character or player. In the watch I specifically set about ruining the opportuniies for opposite aligned characters with in the faction. It was ic, it was done ic and in ic ways and it didn't always work--but. Honestly I would have preferred a harder app and less frivolous assignments. The fact that the assignments can cause strife was cool... Sometimes.

Tracking down players and chatting with them for an hour really doesn't seem necessary anymore. Assuming the DMs that approve the app are uptodate on the IG situations.

[Ebok]

I should mention that I have been in situations where I had ic approval without an app. In some cases in the underdark I had people with overwheling demand to have another pc in the faction despite them failing to get an app through two or three times. I was always wondering what side of this matters? The pcs that are actually running the faction, or the players ability to forecast their own progressiveness. Doing this entirely either way could work, and if a dm handles such then it's most fair. Especially in factions with internal strife--it's not like the pcs are the recruiter for dm factions anyway. It's always their boss with the final say.

Of course, icly there still needs to be an ic transition from not in the faction to inside it. :/

[TheImpossibleDream]

How often do you like EVERYBODY you work with? Your boss decides who to employ. Not you. I think having a faction where its possible people don't necessarily like each other is a positive thing rather than a negative and the current process kind of makes that almost impossible!

[AntoninD'Erlon]

I have always been in favor of having newer members accompany me on things for a time and judging / fixing their behavior rather than sending them off on a random task or charging them a thousand gold. I remember getting into some internal conflict over such a thing infact, ICly, but I'd much prefer that it be done in an inclusive way rather than a "don't bother me until you can do something useful" way.

[RagingPurpleGiant]

Inter-faction conflict and inner-faction conflict ftw.
 
I want to see some Lawful Evil Pallid Masks getting on the nerves of those Paladinly Pallid Masks!
 
Get a big mean bully of a Stygian who gives Aaron noogies!
 
My point being, if you need a recommendation from each person in a faction before you can join, it's difficult to create an interesting arrangement of characters, because to get a recommendation you'll typically have to be liked and similar to those you're trying to get a recommendation from.
 
Just some thoughts I had.

[Paha]

How often do you like EVERYBODY you work with? Your boss decides who to employ. Not you. I think having a faction where its possible people don't necessarily like each other is a positive thing rather than a negative and the current process kind of makes that almost impossible!

It's whole lot possible. That's why I said, that if some character is a douche that goes around making people miserable to get benefits for himself, in IC manner you can always try to go to someone else, in the last resort, even NPC. There is no such thing as needing recommendation of everyone. They are all low class soldiers, members or what ever. If one of them favors the recruit and passes good reasons, the two other can cry all they want and leader may still want to take the aspirant in.

Naturally it's aimed that PC's are in control, but sometimes it might prove quite good to shaken them up with contacting their leader.
Or in other case, just earn the respect, not their liking. If you just go against the guy arrogantly, sometimes that's all it takes.

I'm so saidly hardcore in one part, and that is playing and reacting to the characters actions and behavior to the last bit, and doing it in character. If that means going over their head, going to other people, so be it. Naturally it doesn't work for everyone.

[Pup]

Having apped for a noble recently, and talking with the DMs,  I learned that they are keeping their cards close to their breast when it comes to New Houses.  

What is going to be done has already been done, and best of luck to anyone who seeks out that path.  I do not mean this to get anyone to choose a different route, but as I have heard It's not happening right now.