Ways to Make Pure Bards more Popular

[Zelknolf]

We don't do messy hackjobs on this server.

Furthermore, your proposal won't pass character validation.

You can get a choice, which is more than you had before. Be happy.

If replacing simple weapon proficiency with elf proficiency wouldn't pass character validation, neither would an override that offers a choice between the three. The resulting .bics would be identical.

Also, how is a bonus feat on an item that players never see more of a "hack job" than skill points saved in variables (EFUSS), unlabeled special abilities under player tools, spell changes without spell description changes, unused (but selectable!) core skills (craft armor/weapon), a repurposed skill that retains its old name/description (craft trap) that is redundant with a variable skill (EFUSS's engineering), or changed class abilities without changed descriptions or entries on the feat list (barbarian rage/movement, druid/ranger movement, detect evil, summon mount)?

[Gippy]

We have been very good about getting around engine limitations. We aren't interested in having players download content, but while I know nothing about scripting, it may be possible to add the rogue weapon proficiency to bard skins. It may even be desirable.

[ScottyB]

The (optional) override will work. I know for a number of reasons, chiefly because I designed the character validation scripts myself and understand how they work, as well as how NWN handles character creation. It's not just the resulting character files that matter, but the 2DAs used by the server. Also, I have the files prepared, but I'm holding off on them in order to get DM team consensus.

[hide=A mildly technical explanation of why it was done this way]What was needed was a server 2DA set that is compatible with both the optional override and the default NWN files. It needs to work without requiring anyone to download anything. Doing a straight-up replacement will just break things, but by setting it up in a way that allows the default Simple Weapon Proficiency to be a valid option means that existing characters and new unmodified characters will continue to be valid.[/hide]

[hide=On hackjobs]A hackjob is something that uses NWN in ways that are counter-intuitive to design, and noticeably so; for example, trying to remove a feat, put a new feat in its place, and then add the removed feat in a different place (on an item), which is something that players will encounter through notifications about feat-loss and item re-equipment. Whereas with the override they will just get a perfectly normal choice of feats.

EFUSS is a secondary and self-contained system. It works the way it was designed to. It should not be considered an appendage of the NWN skills, since it works in a very different and intentionally-designed way.

Player Tools were added by BioWare, and an enterprising DM made use of them.

We are not a crafting server. It doesn't kill anyone to leave Craft Armor/Weapon alone.

I don't think we use Craft Trap as "Engineering" anymore since leaving the Underdark/adding EFUSS.

The inability to change spell/feat descriptions isn't that big a deal. Hell, BioWare's own feat descriptions are often misleading and in a few cases incorrect. Detect Evil isn't an NWN feat, so I'm not sure why it's on that list.[/hide]

[shadowsong]

The fact they don't get arcane spell failure reduction in light armor AND NWNs 3.0 bard grants them 2 fewer skill points per level hurts.
 
You could throw a hook in your onequip/unequips to check for:
 
characters has bard levels
character is equipping light armor
character has no other arcane spellcasting classes (sorc or wiz)
 
if all conditions are met you can apply the appropriate arcane spell reduction as a temporary effect directly to the armor and remove it when the armor is unequipped.
 
This is doable without haks and would be effective for all single arcane spellcasting class bards from the day updated.
 
Imho this would give bards a little more ability to take a hit without sacrificing one of their rare and beloved spell slots on mage armor. And in a full analysis of the low level spellcasting ability, they just don't get enough spell slots to make still spell worthwhile.
 
Just a thought.

[BigBadThief]

If that works is it perhaps possible to add such a thing for rangers to dual wield in chain shirts? I know that's off topic but still a thought that might fit in well. ;)

[ScottyB]

In-line with making pure bards better, what about at level 5+ giving them -10% spellfailure on their own equipped armor when they activate Bard Song (for the duration of the song)?

I know as per PnP they're "entitled" to being able to cast in light armor, but this isn't PnP.

[Drakill Tannan]

-Giving them -10% spell failture when on bardsong.
-Making bard song a free action
-Add elf/rogue weapon proficiency
-Give 3 ranks +1 per bard level to the perform skill

Make this, and bards will be quite good. But far from OP.
I support this changes.

[Letsplayforfun]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to compare the fighting mechanics of a class that is not a fighting class. If it's a fighting bard you want, multiclass to warrior.

Sure you can't make a bard that can have all his class skills unless you invest in INT. But the same goes for most other classes. I mean, should warrior get discipline for free? Rogue sneak skills for free?

I must say, this class can cast, flank, sneak, UMD, .... and still you want to increase what it can do?

[BigBadThief]

Correct.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

It's in the spirit of the class, laddy. Dwarven bards should not perform, they should take the longsword and slash some tendons.

[Egon the Monkey]

Sure you can't make a bard that can have all his class skills unless you invest in INT. But the same goes for most other classes.

The average fighter will take Discipline and Concentration as all they actually need, and probably one more skill like Heal or Taunt if they have INT or Human. Rogues have enough SP to max out H/MS and then take four more skills maxed, and they gain a lot out of having Intelligence because several important class skills use it. Both classes have sufficient Skill Points to do their usual job. Bards have 4 SP a level, one of which has to go on perform. That leaves you 3 SP and if you want to take H/MS and UMD, whoops, there goes your other two. He can't in fact get *most* of his class skills without being a Human with good INT.

A pure bard's going to want 16 CH by the time he's L7, 16 in STR or Dex for combat, at least 14 Dex anyway for some decent AC... They have to spread their attributes thin and most builds can't afford more INT points. Also a bard *is* a fighting class, take a look at their AB progression and abilities like Discipline, Taunt, and Medium Armor.

I'm grateful to ScottyB for taking the time to think up ways to implement some of these ideas. -10% spellfail on Bardsong activation is a great idea. You'd be able to wear leathers or padded and cast, just not studded armor reliably. It'd encourage a middle ground between cloth only bards and stripper-casters and underline the importance of bardsong uses. If all the points summarised by Drakill get implemented, bards will feel like a complete and well-rounded class, rather than the majority of people taking extra weapon/armor proficiencies or multiclassing them.

Finally, to anyone considering making a Tendon Slashing Dwarven Bard, I say go for it. Choosing Gold Dwarf will let you play a pure bard with 16 CHA without minmaxing, and it's great fun, especially as the dwarf hold's enjoying a bit of a renaissance right now.

[Disco]

We should give bards +2 ekstra spells a day. Also they should have more hp and acces to divine wands, then people would play them.

Joke aside Seriously people, Bards are COOL and effictive the way they are, do they really need MORE perks?

[Mort]

I played two bards (pure). Both of them were brutal and scary... The Skillpoint thing is minor enough. The free-action for songs... maybe.

Those seem harmless enough.

Forget all the other buffs of like "+10 str when bardsong..." or -100% spellfailure while wearing fullplate.

The thing is- when you multiclass, you become effective in some other domain. You sacrifice your level 3 spells which are so awesome. There are already rings that boost bards quite handsomely, already. There are advantages that you make your bard more viable for early levels, but more gimped for the late levels. The Level 8 Bard Song is a real thing of beauty. So is the level 8 Curse Song. So fun to RP killing rats or bats with nothing but your voice <_< -- The level 3 spells are awesome... Haste.. GMW... Keen..

To me, those are perks enough to make you stay with full bard.

[Listen in Silence]

Even as a backup pc, they are weak. and much less useful than a wizard or a rogue.

I accept your challenge, sir!

[Disco]

There are some who think Bards are the best buffers outthere. I am almost one of them.