RP vs PvP

[RIPnogarD]

I think this should be discussed... In general I feel that players should be made to have a standing rule about PvPing. If you are not going to give the other player a chance at physically defending themselves to take advantage of a situation. i.e. your PC being buffed up and theirs not. Then you should at least give them the option of RPing their way out of it or not. I'm not suggesting you cant take advantage of this type of situation, I'm simply saying in the least give the other player a fighting chance. If you're not going to let them defend themselves physically then at least give them a chance to RP. The only situation where I see this to be a problem would be with assassination but quite honestly I think if you're NOT an assassin then you shouldn't get to simply way-lay somebody. After all druids, paladins and clerics are held to these types of playing within your class restrictions, why not put some on other classes (and races) too. I think it's quite unfair to have these double standards on RPing class restriction. Why are non rogue types allowed to be muggers? Why do players that have prejudices against races or types of people allowed to only have these traits against PC's and not NPC's? i.e., If you play as prejudice against goblins and attack goblin PC's on sight then you should be forced to be ACTIVALLY doing something about the Gobsquat. If your faction hates necromancy then any PC or NPC that uses necromancy spells should be hated, not I hate that one but this one's ok shit! etc, etc...

On a more personal note. [yes, I'm slightly calmer now]... I feel that (and I believe most players that have interacted with Olo would agree) if given half a chance I would not only have given in and given the 'ransom' but maybe even given more and became on friendly terms with Greeley. My rant was not about the silly 200 gold (more that he yanked my pack and went through it) as some seem to think it was. It was about the total lack of any kind or semblance of role-playing involved in the situation. Not to mention the fact that (and again those that know Olo would agree) he was very cautious about dangerous areas and in the least would have been stealthed (magically enchanted to 30 hide ffs) in that new area had I known it even existed (which I didnt).

[BigBadThief]

Why are non rogue types allowed to be muggers?

Because anyone can be a thug or criminal outside of the obvious restrictions. Wizards, rogues, fighters, bards, rangers - each of these  has countless reasonings depending on the character story. A CG ranger acting like a Robin Hood is quite feasible for example.

Why do players that have prejudices against races or types of people allowed to only have these traits against PC's and not NPC's? i.e., If you play as prejudice against goblins and attack goblin PC's on sight then you should be forced to be ACTIVALLY doing something about the Gobsquat. If your faction hates necromancy then any PC or NPC that uses necromancy spells should be hated! etc, etc...

Correct, although you have to understand that challenging NPCs falls into a separate category of conflict typically. Your Goblin hating character should of course oppose the Gobsquat and all Goblins he can -within his power- and make other moves against those he can't directly face. This brings up another subject RWG spoke about some time ago where players should / should not be pushing their agenda 100% at level 2 and getting involved in conflict or whatnot. To me, the answer is clear and it's just as I said, do what you can within your power or expect a swift death if you try to take on too much.

On a more personal note. [yes, I'm slightly calmer now]... I feel that (and I believe most players that have interacted with Olo would agree) if given half a chance I would not only have given in and given the 'ransom' but maybe even given more and became on friendly terms with Greeley. My rant was not about the silly 200 gold (more that he yanked my pack and went through it) as some seem to think it was. It was about the total lack of any kind or semblance of role-playing involved in the situation. Not to mention the fact that (and again those that know Olo would agree) he was very cautious about dangerous areas and in the least would have been stealthed in that new area had I known it even existed (which I didnt).

I don't know exactly what happened in your situation, nor do you understand the motivations of Greeley just like he didn't understand Olo would have given him the gold. Perhaps he reacted too quickly, perhaps not. What I think you should have done is let the situation happen and try to make something entertaining out of it. Had you stuck around only a few more minutes you would have seen Greeley, a well known criminal with a large bounty, killed and received your gold back while also letting Olo realize the dangers in that area of the Ziggarut.

A vast amount of players here like it for the large amount of conflict that stirs up daily. Most things are built up for a while, some offenses  cause a character to get killed on sight with little chance, and some characters stay on the sidelines of it doing their own thing because that's what is fitting for them. As I said before, rather than rage quiting after being -subdued-, you should have stuck around to get the whole picture and I think you might have even enjoyed the situation.

[morva]

I think we complain to much as a server. Its just a game. Chill

[RIPnogarD]

It isnt about my sticking around. Whoever plays Greeley shouldnt have been beaten down either if it was about the Olo thing, because Olo would have never, EVER put himself in that situation. The new map without warning forced a PvP that would have never happened. If Greely was beaten down or killed because somebody seen him beat-down Olo it's just wrong.

Honestly, I played Olo to not put himself in situations he didn't want to be in. PvP is one of them. If I knew about the new map I would have at least had a 30 hide going on and not been seen by Greeeley while I investigated the new map ( = no PvP). Had Greeley actually RP'd with Olo instead of ganking him before his buff spells wore off, Olo would eventually have conceded the ransom ( = no PvP). It's all just kinda messed up. None of what happened with Olo should have happened any way I look at it. (That's why I got torqued out.) If there was no PvP with Olo would Greeley have been caught???

Kinda hard to RP "Hey! This road (entire district) wasn't here yesturday!? wtf?"

[Decimate_The_Weak]

If you have the chance to buff, then attack somebody, why not do it? If it exsists, you can do it. If you have the potion in your inventory, you can drink it.
 
Plus, almost 99% after PvP, there is RP. Nobody really just ~kills~. Even during assassinations, if there's time, the assassin can give a small speech as to why it happened, who hired them, etc.
 
Complaining about PvP isn't going to really get anything anywhere. I've been a part of alot of PvP, although some of it can get my heart racing, its all been a blast.
 
When the Blood Legion died, I was not the least bit pissed. You just need to work within your limits, then dream as a player to see what you can accomplish - then go for it. PvP will only make you reach that goal faster. Believe me.

[Paha]

I think you gotta think of few things, that are also a big part in this role playing server and this setting we are in.

Courtesy is always nice, but you gotta also understand this:

What stops you from mugging/stealing/being a thief even if you do not happen to be a rogue? There are many kind ways to do things. Class does not determine you, necessarily.

If it is a battle, and the person is some sort of bloody mugger, why would such brute and unfair person suddenly give a chance for his opponent to buff and get stronger? Some have honor, some are arrogant and wish to struck their foe on their strongest form, but others don't.

You speak a lot about RP, but to me you seem to be wishing that pvp is not part of this interaction at all. However, this setting is meant to be free image of this kind world. If you have a character that is violent, it can happen. There are thieves, there are those honourable enforcers of law and there are all kind people from between and outside the box. It is also RP when you have to deal with these problems in character. This was never meant to be a dreamy, soft core setting where there is no perma death, pvp or evil actions without consent of the good side.

Courtesy is admirable, but there is also a matter role playing that is called fear and accepting.

Like Mort said at some point,

If you are being pvp'ed, it's usually a courtesy to give some chances to to make it out. But you cannot expect to always get out without losing anything.

If you're subdued, you are being perhaps threatened and can:
1.) Act scared or horrified, a person who gives up gold, or something and loses it, but makes it alive with all his weapons and other things. He still has a chance to pay back and stand up.
2.) He keeps ignoring the serious side of this threat and ignores the role playing possibilities of a free world this setting is, which leads to more mugging and another more dire threat possibly.

At second option, if you -choose- to be brave, you gotta carry the consequences all the way. That is also role playing. Some may give you few more chances, others may not. And you may end up all the way dead, lose even more of your posessions, or anything that I can't bother to think of right now.

These are all different sides of Role playing. In this server, you talk with both your mouth and fists, and they are part of the RP.

Also, running and being a coward is as well an option. Hell, many just don't accept the situation and play it, because they are embarrassed of it OOC.

[Mort]

I think the title should be RP & Possibility of PvP + Meaningful consequences. As the two aren't opposites as you try to make it seem.

If you cant tolerate that possibility, I dont think EFU is for you. It's like a prerequisite... To tolerate the chance that it could happen and be chill when it does.

 If you can't, well, you will just become angry and bitter and drag everyone else near you in that anger making them and yourself feel like shit over pixelated events. It might be better to find a server where there is no such possibility.

That said, plenty of people have played many concepts without ever engaging in pvp. Myself included.

I do understand that some people type slow. Some are playing with a coffee or a cigarette in their hand. Some are listening to television or are distracted. This is a disadvantage but there is no way to balance these extraneous factors.

[RIPnogarD]

What stops you from mugging/stealing/being a thief even if you do not happen to be a rogue? There are many kind ways to do things. Class does not determine you, necessarily.

What stops a druid from sleeping in a building? What stops a druid from getting coin by selling animal skins? What stops a paladin from getting along with the evil guy? What stops a cleric of a good god from being a mugger if he's broke? Why does the cleric of this one god have to hate the cleric of another god?

[Caster13]

Jean was planting seeds in the inner city ruins when a half-orc buffed up behind her and took a swing at her. I managed to get away but I didn't escape the situation with any animosity or negative emotions (in fact, I goaded the would-be mugger for failing in tells >_>).
 
PvP, in general, reflects the reality of violence in the server's setting.
 
I do think the confusion with the new areas popping up and being OOCly disoriented about how you would be playing Olo in that area does suck though. I suppose next time it'd just be better to run straight back through the transition instead of trying to RP it out if you're OOCly disoriented.

[Paha]

What stops a druid from sleeping in a building? What stops a druid from getting coin by selling animal skins? What stops a paladin from getting along with the evil guy? What stops a cleric of a good god from being a mugger if he's broke? Why does the cleric of this one god have to hate the cleric of another god?

Ah hah. Nothing stops you. However, druid would lose his connection to the wild and place within what ever circles, if I recall how their "social" system works.

That is however also a choise. Don't be stranded by it.

Paladin loses his place as a holy, righteous warrior in eyes of his deity if he sides with evil. Simple as that.

And well, who knows what happens to cleric if he goes mugging. He surely isn't doing good deeds, perhaps slowly gains change of alignment.

And who says cleric has to hate another, unless they have grown used to this belief and custom, therefor also becoming acolytes of their deity.

You seem to be trying to find excuses, but if one character is a paladin, rogue, what ever, they have become such for some reason and their personality usually compliments it. It doesn't have to, however. It's an option you can choose.

No matter how many times you say that no other than rogue can be a thief or mugger, doesn't make it true. Just an example, if someone in real life tells you that because you're John Doe, you can't learn to speak english? It's about same as what you're implying right now.

Why on earth would you say wizard or fighter could not be a thief?

[Caster13]

Some classes are more flexible than others in regards to RP potential.
 
A fighter's limitations are practically all mechanical.

[Egon the Monkey]

RIP makes a very good point about one thing, even if the rest is a bit unclear out of context. New areas, especially new areas without NPCs can be confusing and deadly to PCs. Case in point, I had a PC smash his way through the Sewers to get to the way up to the Docks, only to discover there was a new, longer Nightriser filled tunnel he hadn't expected, just as his buffs ran down. And I know a player who essentially failed to escape from a pursuer because he got lost in the new version of the Foothills map when it changed months ago.

I think a lot of players, especially those with irregular playing periods, would appreciate a changelog saying when new areas have been introduced, or maps substantially changed. Nothing that would spoil the location for exploring but just:

• Added an NPC-free crossroads area linking Docks, Ziggurat and Temples
• Increased the length of the sewers map from the Ziggurat to the Docks
• Added a Sandbar linking the Docks to the Perilous Cliffside.

Since these areas are ret-conned in and assumed to always have been there, giving us OOC knowledge of when this happens would mean we wouldn't be surprised as players to see a lawless area or longer trek when our PCs wouldn't be.

[DangerousDan]

I think a 'Server Update' thread for non-spoiler areas which affect things OOCly is a fine idea, actually. Obviously this'd have to be used sparingly to avoid any spoiler territory. However, announcing new ruins areas which affect main travelling routes is a good one.

[RIPnogarD]

Robin Hood and his merry-men <(silly name btw) were part of or a type of thief or rogue's guild. Any mugging and theivery should either be dealt with by the local thieves dealing with the freelancer or the DM should say "perhaps you should take a level of rogue next progression being that you've mugged 12 PC's."  I'm not saying they can't mug and that PvP shouldn't happen. I'm just saying that if it takes a level of cleric to allow a druid to be able to sleep in the city then there should be similer things done to other classes based on how they play their character. A fighter that is forever mugging people should be told to take a level of rogue, be threatened by a group of thieves for freelancing or maybe have to join a "rogue" faction or at least have a reasonable level rogue as part of a team effort mugging or something.

[derfo]

It isnt about my sticking around. Whoever plays Greeley shouldnt have been beaten down either if it was about the Olo thing, because Olo would have never, EVER put himself in that situation.

Then you shouldn't have walked into an area that it's possible in, or taken the precautions to prevent it upon realization.

The new map without warning forced a PvP that would have never happened. If Greely was beaten down or killed because somebody seen him beat-down Olo it's just wrong.

Not really. I think once you enter the new map it is pretty obvious that what it is. It's been said that there's more ruins than what's shown and while it's probably not the ideal representation of what is most desirable to wander through, engine limitations, or what the DMs have time to create. Just existing can force you into PvP if someone wants to find/target you.

Greeley was an evil character who was inclined to do this, and he did. He was beaten down and killed because he was a wanted man and someone found him and did so.

Honestly, I played Olo to not put himself in situations he didn't want to be in. PvP is one of them. If I knew about the new map I would have at least had a 30 hide going on and not been seen by Greeeley while I investigated the new map ( = no PvP). Had Greeley actually RP'd with Olo instead of ganking him before his buff spells wore off, Olo would eventually have conceded the ransom ( = no PvP).

Why didn't you just concede then? Obviously you had the opportunity. He subdued you, which doesn't somehow make it illegal for you to continue to RP. Buff spells sort of exist in this manner for that reason. Do you think that if you were in a back alleyway and you were being mugged that he would give you the opportunity to write him a poem or something?

It's all just kinda messed up. None of what happened with Olo should have happened any way I look at it. (That's why I got torqued out.) If there was no PvP with Olo would Greeley have been caught???

I don't think anything like this always happens as we ideally plan. While I can sympathize with that sort of misfortune, I think that your reaction is somewhat rash and misguided. Of course, it happens to most of us sooner or later.

calm down