Rogues and Trackless Step

[UnholyWon]

I'm unsure if this is hardcoded, or if it can be scripted, or whatever. I've been thinking that it would only be right if rogues recieved trackless step in city areas, because they have studied moving thru these ares without ever being seen.

Such areas are there natural grounds, and thus the +4 competence bonus would make sense. I wouldn't recommend it being granted at level one but perhaps at level six, especially for the purest rogues.

Any thoughts?

[Caster13]

In my opinion, rogues don't need much help to get high H/MS >_>
 
Plus, rogues are already very versatile whereas trackless step is something that adds versatility to rogues/druids.

[Mort]

Uhm <_<

No. No free +4/+4 bonus.

[UnholyWon]

*shrugs* Just a suggestion

[Egon the Monkey]

You're thinking of the Urban Ranger class for DnD. They got Trackless Step in towns, could take an organisation as a Favoured Enemy and got stuff like rats, alleycats and dogs as companions if I recall.

[Dr Dragon]

I find it lame a ranger can get a free +4 to hide/MS while in the wilderness while when a clever rogue stalks the streets he/she does not get a similar boost. I am all in favor of rogues getting such a bonus considering rogues are supposed to  be urban sneaks. I think this would greatly boost the abilities of rogues making us just as good as rangers stealth wise when in our area (IE Urban areas)

[ScottyB]

Trackless Step is a hardcoded feat, but giving rogues some kind of bonus in city zones similar to the custom movement rate boost for other classes in wilderness areas wouldn't be difficult.

Doing this for Hide/MS doesn't seem like a good idea, though, and a 10% movement bonus just seems silly; I don't know why we do it.

[Relinquish]

Rogues are already totally awesome.

[Skrillix]

Rogues are already totally awesome.

QFT. With all the awesome stuff rogues can already do, do they really need an increase to their already respectable stealthing?

[Ommadawn]

Got to agree here. Rogues are already a very powerful class, and really don't need this bonus.

[BigBadThief]

What I find funny about the disagreements is that the suggestion would give a bonus to stealth, a skill that rogues typically fall behind in compared to rangers and even high-end druids.

However, I also don't think it's a good idea mainly because there is no reasoning for it. A rogue is a 'jack of all trades' sort and they have a lot of skill points and skills available for a reason. A Ranger, even an Urban PRC ranger, is specialized in an environment (amongst other things) and duly receive bonuses for that. I would really be for more PRC options to create things like this urban Ranger PRC but I'm not sure if that's really possible or even wanted.

[Caster13]

Rangers and druids get high stealth on two factors: wilderness (+4 H/MS from trackless step) and magic (one with the land, camouflage). Both of these factors have some limits.
 
In my experience and opinion, with pure rogue builds, it's possible to get H/MS to the low-to-mid-twenties and these are persistent numbers.

[Egon the Monkey]

Caster nails it. Rogues don't need bonuses. They get UMD and 6 Skillpoints a level. If you can't figure out how to use that to get good stealth UMDstealthgear, you shouldn't be playing one who sneaks. Should the poor underpowered stealth monks and bards get Trackless too? I won't claim to have ever played an epic stealther, but getting high H/MS scores isn't complicated, just a question of taking feats or stats and keeping your eyes open for gear. I've got over 20 unbuffed H/MS on a dwarven bard/rogue with no stealth feats before.

As a further note, if you're that bothered, why not make a no-stealth rogue? I once played a PC who was Fighter 1 Rogue 7 and wore halfplate. His rogue skills were mostly tumble (get it high enough and maybe take Skillfocus and that's +1 AC even in heavy armor), social skills and Spot. He'd do stuff like spot cats/Disciples sneaking up and hit them with a dirtyfighing greatsword sneak attack, and drop into Imp Expertise if he couldn't flank. It was a lot of fun.

• If you want to be an amazing stealther, load up on stealth feats and/or be a small PC.
• Wear all the stealth gear you can get your greasy little hands on, and always see what class restricted stuff you can UMD, even if you have to chug a Splendor to equip it.
• Dual wield weapons with +Hide or Move Silent *even if you don't have dual wield feats*. You can always swap when combat starts.
• Use Camo and OWTL consumables if you have to.

[Caddies]

I find it amusing that the main argument against giving rogues this feat is that they're already 'extremely powerful' when comparatively (and especially on EFU) they are quite weak compared to most other classes.

The reason why rogues will not get this skill is because it doesn't suit the class thematically and its not possible from a technical standpoint.

[ScottyB]

Actually, I already indicated that the desired effect is mechanically possible, and the suggestion is for an urban version which would be thematically appropriate.

This isn't about the rogue's overall "power" but rather the idea that they aren't that good at stealthing. However, there's more than plenty of rogue-intended stealth loot to make up for the lack of a free stealth feat.

Doing something like this, or giving rogues a movement speed bonus for being in city areas (similar to wilderness classes getting our custom movement bonuses) is relatively easy, but just doesn't seem necessary.