DMs and time zones

[Gwydion]

I might say something stupid here, or am ignorant in some way that I hope doesn't offend, but I'm going to say some things anyway.  Feel free to educate me if you feel necessary.   Understand please that these suggestions are being shared from my POV - in the interest of discussing a topic that appears important to the health and vitality of the server at this time.

Looking at Caddies' updated DM thread, it seems that DM staff is spread pretty thin right now.  There aren't many active DMs right now.  Also, there are a veritable CRAPLOAD of former DMs that have done a great job in the past but for whatever reason are no longer doing so.  And many of them are still around, maybe even playing PCs right now.

This has resulted in certain time zones being rarely attended by DMs.  I always check EFUSL when I am going to log in, and quite frequently there is no DM on when I usually play.  Playing in these time zones that usually are untended by the DMs is just not as fun as when they are.  A couple of years ago, there were usually 30+ players and at least 2 DMs on when I played, and now the norm seems to be 10 players and no DMs. (evenings in the US)

(Yes, I know that there are often 30 players and 2 DMs on during other times.  Unfortunately it seems to be the same general time every day, and I usually can't play then.  Yes,  I'm jealous and maybe being a bit selfish.)

I think we need some of you old vet DMs to come back.  At least part time.  Maybe do some little things that are fun for you and fun for the players too.  Once a week if that's all you feel like playing.  I don't think its just nostalgia, but I recall Howland and other DMs would quite often possess NPCs and give ANY interested and available PCs opportunities to have a fun DM quest.  DM quests didn't seem to always be pre-discussed, pre-arranged, and designed to further a single PC or faction's goals.  

Not saying these things don't happen now, but I sure don't see much of it, especially in my normal playtimes.  

I know that the DMs have talked about and suffer DM burnout, and have posted some things that contribute to it.  The recent OOC angst has probably not helped them much lately either.  Frankly the awesomeness of the server is directly proportional to how many DMs are active and excited about doing stuff.

So let me cut to the chase...

DMs, it seems you need to have more fun.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like the DMs are now reacting more to the players than the players are reacting to the stories, efforts and actions of the DM staff.  Is that fun for you?  Caddies' rumor post about PCs chugging a bunch of potions and attacking Stygian NPCs conveyed a stong sense of "guys, don't do this anymore". And if there are things that contribute to DM burnout that you can eliminate - get out the scythe and slash them.  

When players ask you guys to do something you don't want to do, just tell them.  "I really am not interested in possessing that NPC because..."   I usually feel silly getting on the DM channel and asking for a DM to do something because I'm worried that they think its stupid and a waste of their time, but they are too polite to tell me this straight up.

If OOC bitching and griping is the #1 "Energy Sucker" and cause of DM burnout - don't freaking put up with it.  Patiently explain your position ONCE if you want, and then say, "I'm sorry you don't agree, but that's my position."  If they keep bitching about it, ask them to stop it, then ban them for a week, a month or whatever.  I know I vent about generic frustrations about my PC via Tell and IRC sometimes, but having a heated dispute with a DM is a completely different beast and needs to be curtailed if if ultimately results in DMs giving up this demanding gig.  Bitching about a ruling AFTER its made is even worse IMO.  There is a reason Umps and Refs eject players in sports when they don't let it go.

If good players who are "know-it-alls" keep busting your chops and saying you should do things a certain way...GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO BE A DM FOR A WHILE.  We need more DMs anyway, and if they think they know what should be done, give them a chance to do it.  If these good players turn down the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is - then tell them they can STFU and accept the rulings of the extremely talented yet innately fallible human beings that comprise the DM staff.

Hope this is constructive.  The community of EFU is an amazing one with a lot of very smart, creative people.  We ought to be able to solve problems in a productive manner.   Creating an amazing PC who is designed to lead a faction of numerous characters and will overcome all manner of obstacles to reach their goals, but whose player goes apeshit over a DM's decision doesn't seem to quite compute in my book.


...Disclaimer - the author of this post in no way is attempting to suggest that he has all the answers or is a model player on the server.

[ScottyB]

I know that the reason I'm playing instead of DMing is because I need to reorient myself with the server. Last time I popped in to just do a little DM quest I made an embarrassing number of blunders.

[EfUA_undercover]

Mate, as much as I agree with a couple of points you raised there, you have brought up some points that I see quite a bit different.
Of course DM presence has been rare lately, but making them feel guilty for it isn't what is going to bring the fun for them back. All the angst is of course a reason though for even more of them to feel burned out.

Frankly the awesomeness of the server is directly proportional to how many DMs are active and excited about doing stuff.

Well, it is true that DMs often sparcle the life into something we won't even realise that it is there without them, but to be frank it is often the players actions that change things. Do awesome stuff and you will be recognized, bathed in DM attention, and you will be having the fun you seem to miss, even without a DM, but with the players you and your actions attract.

Caddies' rumor post about PCs chugging a bunch of potions and attacking Stygian NPCs conveyed a stong sense of "guys, don't do this anymore".

Honestly, I doubt Caddies would use ic ways to express he feels oocly bad about something, if he didn't want it to happen he could have stopped the players quite easily I bet.

If OOC bitching and griping is the #1 "Energy Sucker" and cause of DM burnout - don't freaking put up with it...  Bitching about a ruling AFTER its made is even worse IMO.  There is a reason Umps and Refs eject players in sports when they don't let it go.

I am with you there, but usually people in sports get a warning (yellow card whatever you have). I guess DMs here go nearly the same way, they warn players who cause a hussle, discuss it among themselves and if it is a reoccuring thing they react.

Well, just my two cents on this subject.

[Gwydion]

Thanks Scotty.  We all <3 you.  (I'm willing to let you work out your mistakes on my PCs if you want.)  

Just to be clear, I'm not calling out individual DMs at all, nor trying to make any DM feel guilty they are playing or lurking and aren't DMing now.  

There just don't seem to be many active DMs, which results in no DMs being on during certain times of the day - nearly every day.

[Gwydion]

Point taken about Caddies' IC Rumors post.  Apologies if I swung and missed on that one, especially to Caddies.  

EFU_Undercover, there is one thing I too must dispute:

"Do awesome stuff and you will be recognized."  

Not every RPer on this server is consistently awesome.  Most are capable of it, at times, but population mechanics and common sense dictates that some will always be better than others.

If there are only a few DMs, and they have a limited amount of time that is focused on a small minority of awesome players - coupled with a high difficulty for new players coming to the server - server numbers will diminish over time.  My simple solution is that we need more DMs, and more DMs means more players get to experience EFU at its finest.  

People don't log on as often during times when DMs aren't on.  Low server numbers discourages new players from finding and checking out this amazing setting.  This in turn discourages other long time players who simply can't find much to do.  

Maybe I'm making a mountain from a molehill.   Maybe some of you WANT the "not awesome" players to go away and not come back.  But I will say that when I started playing on this server 3 years ago there was an obvious priority of the DM staff and vet players to welcome and aid new players to the setting.

I just don't see that as being a priority anymore.  Maybe I'm wrong.  

More DMs on AND having fun with the entire players base is a cure for a lot of ills though.   The point of this thread was to see how we might be able to achieve that.

[Gippy]

There is very little chance of retired DMs coming back. They have retired for whatever reason, and that is that. The DM team is of course looking for new DMs, so update your SOI's, play the awesome, etc if you wish to be considered.

[derfo]

I agree with Gippy for what it's worth! I remember red eleint when I first tried this server it seemed like the DMs and PCs actually gave a shit about people, which is why I chose to stay here, simply.

Not that I am saying that is in contrast to now, but I think that the lack of bias and attempts to get new willing people involved is one of the many of major strengths of this server I never saw in others.

[Tanonx]

Caddies' rumor post about PCs chugging a bunch of potions and attacking Stygian NPCs conveyed a stong sense of "guys, don't do this anymore".

I did actually get something of the same vibe from that post, and was thinking about mentioning it. The mentions of excessive potion use and 'opportunistic and unimaginative murder spree's bring it a bit close to the line between characters and players for me. Still, if anything, I'd rather just hear Caddies' word on it.

And, of course, the darker side of 'do awesome things to get recognized' is that when you've only got a few DMs, you have to be not only awesome, but more awesome than the rest of the server, so you end up fighting the other players for DM recognition. Not really ideal. At the same time, though, you can't lay blame to anything but the lack of DMs, as player competition is inevitable in this case, and our DMs are trying their best to keep the server alive.

[Drakill Tannan]

I don't think this is any form of blackmail to get the DMs to be more active, and i agree, it would be nicer to have more DMs. No hard feelings on the DMs that are gone, truly, but i'd like them to come back. Note the diference between "like" and "ask".

But also PCs can make the server awsome. Stop standind idly in front of the kingsmans. Pick a fight with the first PC whose portiait you don't like and you have something to do. Make up a random quest, such as "My friend is terribly Ill, and we need to find a herb that grows in the bogs to save her, please help me"

Not only DMs can create non-scripted quests, players can too, it's just that they will be more limited.

[Ommadawn]

I hear and understand the OP's points, and even agree on some of them. Having said that, I do think that the emphasis on needing DM's around to have fun and get stuff done needs to be re-evaluated.  If you guys that play in the traditional prime time are seeing less (or no) DM presence and fewer players, you're really just getting a taste of what many of us have played with consistently for years in other time zones and play times.

This is just a normal side effect of playing a game that involves people from all over the world, and while it can be frustrating at times, is just something we live with and work around. I know I'd dearly love to see more DM's step up and help make EfU:A a living, breathing world, but that needs other players with the right stuff to also step up and put their hands up.

In the mean time, I feel the current DM team is doing a fantastic job pushing plots and change, evolving the server and making it as much fun as possible for all of us with the resources they have. We can help them out (and make DM'ing more fun for them and less a chore) by playing and doing stuff that is player-driven as much as possible. Of course, DM's are always needed for some things, but the current situation's not likely to change until more DM's are promoted from the player base. Either way, there's always fun to be had, whether DM's are around or not! Get to it, people!  :mrgreen:

[Portal Rat]

Stop standind idly in front of the kingsmans.
Stop standind idly in front of the kingsmans.
Stop standind idly in front of the kingsmans.
Stop standind idly in front of the kingsmans.
Stop standind idly in front of the kingsmans.
Stop standind idly in front of the kingsmans.
Stop standind idly in front of the kingsmans.

I swear to god, I'm going to fill out an SOI just so I can DM kill people who go AFK in front of Kingsman's. Have the courtesy to go AFK in a chair or a closed room where you won't be tempting people to interact with you.

[TheImpossibleDream]

I swear to god, I'm going to fill out an SOI just so I can DM kill people who go AFK in front of Kingsman's. Have the courtesy to go AFK in a chair or a closed room where you won't be tempting people to interact with you.

He doesn't mean idle as in afk he means idle as in standing around chatting, scratching self, etc

[Caddies]

The main points I gathered from the original post are:

- There are few DMs actively DMing at the moment
- Some timezones aren't very active in terms of DMing IG
- Old DMs should come back
- DMs should have more fun doing what they do
- If players think they can do better jobs, make them DMs

Here are my thoughts on those points:

- Five active DMs isn't a great deal but certainly not that bad. If you recall, back on EFU for a period of 6 months or more it was basically only Metropakt and Howland DMing. Then much more recently, it was basically only Mort DMing on EFU:A for roughly the same period. The reason it probably seems there are less now than these other periods is because most of the DMs active now are either European or Australian, which means being an American you probably see less on! I do agree we could use more though, and we've been discussing this.

- Yes, correct. But this has been no different since EFU's inception. Previously, it was Euro/Australian players that suffered. I'm talking ZERO DM activity (not a single DM logging in for any amount of time) for stretches of months and possibly even years. These players sucked it up (I know, because I was one of them) and we made our own fun and anything on top was just bonus! Its true the American timezone isn't getting massive amounts of love just now, but consider that just a chance to show us how you can make your own plots and events and interactions fun without our presence.

- As Gip alluded to, old DMs have retired for a reason (almost always RL stuff, or just growing out of EFU) and probably won't come back, certainly not if we ask them to because we need more DM interactions IG.

- I agree DMs should have more fun. But the honest truth is that DMing is stressful and usually very unrewarding. It involves alot of tedious hours spent building/scripting/setting up quests/solving disputes with or between players ETC. Oh, and answering forums posts ;) Anyways, the point is that we try and have fun but sometimes it doesn't work out. So we do what all humans do; we start doing what is fun, and that's how every DM develops their DMing style. For some DMs, Talir comes to mind, its spending lots of time running small events for newer/average players. For others, its building and scripting alot of amazing stuff for everyone's enjoyment. For others like myself, its logging on when players IG are already getting up to fun things all by their own and doing what I can to make those events more fun (spice, PvP, random NPC interactions, etc.)

- If we made every player who thinks they'd be an amazing DM a DM we'd probably have no players! Choosing DMs will never work like that. We have lots of discussion and basically do votes on new DMs and its -imperative- that every single existing DM feels comfortable working with any new one. DMs must also have a variety of traits we look for to ensure they excel and the server benefits. Another thing to consider is the playerbase, which is getting smaller and smaller as time goes on (NWN is like, 6 years old lol). We need to be sure when we do take a player that we aren't just taking from that pool. Some players are just better players than they will be DMs. They give more to the server playing! We have learnt that lesson.

All in all, it was a decent post and I hope I've answered some of your queries/concerns!

[Howlando]

One thing I don't think players sometimes understand is just how hard it is to turn people into DMs.

It's definitely not something to be done lightly. We're always looking to add more but it is extremely difficult - for one thing, we don't want to steal talented players from the playerbase, and another we just need to be certain that they'll work well within the team.

In three years of EFU, can you think of -any- situation where DMs fought or disagreed or had some kind of dramatic hissy-fight? On other servers DMs clashing can be a huge issue - it really never has been here in EFU, which is definitely to our credit. Of course there will be disagreements but fundamentally I think every DM we have had has gotten along well with each other. I mean sure ScottyB says rude things about my mother sometimes but other than that we're a pretty happy family.

The way we work, once someone is a DM they practically have access to everything - all the lore, all the secrets, the module and the scripts, everything. They could do a lot of damage, intentionally or unintentionally.

Making someone a DM is just hard.

I'd like to figure out why we have DM-burn-out which requires us to constantly be looking for new members to the team, I'm not certain why it happens so regularly. I think with every person it's a unique situation.

Anyway. If there is a solution, I am all ears.

[Gwydion]

Thanks for taking the time to post about this Caddies and Howland.   Much appreciated.


Howland ~ "I'd like to figure out why we have DM-burn-out which requires us to constantly be looking for new members to the team, I'm not certain why it happens so regularly. I think with every person it's a unique situation.

Anyway. If there is a solution, I am all ears."


An important point.  I didn't think it was easy to become a DM.  I'd compare it to training a pilot.  Lots of time and effort to create a highly specialized skill that is very important in their field.  

Maybe this will promote discussion in the DM ranks about why some don't DM anymore and what can be done to change it.  Maybe this will remind some of you DMs how much your talents and efforts make the server go and are appreciated.  Maybe this will make some of the players (including me) realize how silly it is to give crap to our unpaid friends who are working their butts off to provide free entertainment to a bunch of people they don't know or will ever meet.

I hope some of the "retired" DMs decide to do just a little bit once in while to keep this experience fun and exciting.  But as individuals, if its just not fun anymore or you aren't able to do it for whatever reason - we understand.

It won't kill me if the server slowly dries up and ends up catering to just a few amazing players.  But I'd hate to see that happen because playing EFU is generally a lot of fun for me and is a wonderful Escape From Reality that many of us need.

Thanks to all who have been and are participating in this discussion!