1.69 Pathfinding

[Box]

This sounds like a job for

DAEMONIC-DAZ

[Egon the Monkey]

Oh hell yes. Remove it. Burn it. Scatter the ashes to the four winds. It's crazy, especially when you get trapped at the front of a group in a narrow corridor when you were standing at the back shooting, for example.

[LongerShanks]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but without this system, you can no longer block doorways or use chokepoints in PvP. You lose the only helpful "terrain" factor available to you, aside from elevation. That may seem insignificant, but I think a less than perfect attempt at realism better than a visually absurd "ghost" effect so every just walks right through each other like MMOs. Someone mentioned cool "crowds" forming, but it isn't that cool when they just stack on top of each other.

Most significantly, this means more people can fit in front of Kingsman's. Oh noez!

[putrid_plum]

Did you even read the post? You cannot walk through people... So Box claims.  Keeping something so horrific around for PvP purposes it wrong on so many levels.

[FleetingHeart]

Plum, that's exactly what Box is saying. That you -can- walk through people. That's the whole point.

Of course, that would mean that Monsters would walk through YOU TOO. So, if Big bad BOBO decides he wants to rape your mage, there is no blocking him. He will simply step through you and crush.

[Listen in Silence]

If this isn't done, I'll cry. Like a little girl. Yes.

[KjetilofNorway]

I think I like it as it is now. I like making defensive lines and doing that last stand thing. Bummer if monster's just wade through to the archers.
Haven't had too much trouble due to pathfinding yet either, I think.

[putrid_plum]

Oh I misread, still worth trying!!

[Ranek]

I'm always for immersion, the least it can look like a video-game, for me, the better. Walking through people... Doesn't help that at all. If this system is disabled, then no reason to keep the non-party thing, and some other cool features...

[athousandyearsofpain]

I don't see how the party-system would be related to this.

Anyway, the 1.69 pathfinding is probably one of the most annoying things that excist in NWN. I can't even remember how many times you've been at the back of a group and someone has moved pushing you several feet forward straight into a hoard of creatures to just die instantly because you can't move out of the group or your own allies that was standing infront of you are now blocking your escape behind you.

Remove it. And do it fast.

[LongerShanks]

Of course, that would mean that Monsters would walk through YOU TOO. So, if Big bad BOBO decides he wants to rape your mage, there is no blocking him. He will simply step through you and crush.

I did not bring this up because I wasn't sure of it's validity. If it is as you say, then this is an even more important reason to keep the system as-is than any of my aforementioned reasons. Formation tactics will become a thing of the past, only CRUSHING will matter because it's the only way to stop an enemy from getting off his or her attacks against weaker allies. Or manipulation of the NWN AI. To defend the "ghost" effect, convince me that AI manipulation is better than learning how to deal with a mechanical flaw of NWN that is fairly easily worked around and on rare occasions flukes out and runs you over a deadly trap (although you can always do something to prevent these mishaps). I am being sincere, and perhaps someone may convince me, but I find it very unlikely that a such strong argument can be made.

To address plum's post, I don't think I'm far off the mark to say that the single greatest cause of player to player frustration is PvP. More rules surround PvP than any other single aspect of our server. Any major change to the way PvP functions needs to be given extremely thorough consideration. Remember, PvP is the ONLY way another player can essentially force you to retire your character-- it really is a big deal. While you are correct, plum, that there are things to consider beyond PvP, do not so readily dismiss the significance of PvP on the server! And it certainly isn't wrong to give it so much gravity.

[Kotenku]

I suspect it would be fairly trivial to allow a player to TOGGLE via, say, voice command, whether or not they wish to ghost.

The toggle could even be limited to Quest Areas.

Unless, of course, the Ghost effect applies to all creatures in an area, rather than a specific one.  Naturally this would require that NPCs do not have the ghost effect. I can think of a few cases however, in which giving NPCs the ghost effect could actually present a unique and interesting challenge. Flayers, perhaps, or flying creatures.

The little extra work involved in making it an optional effect, and applying it judiciously, would make this change -rather than a mixed bag of good and bad- into one which is overwhelmingly positive.

[putrid_plum]

"To defend the "ghost" effect, convince me that AI manipulation is better than learning how to deal with a mechanical flaw of NWN that is fairly easily worked around and on rare occasions flukes out and runs you over a deadly trap (although you can always do something to prevent these mishaps). "

It is NOT that rare, it happens quiet often, and the thing it.. there is NOTHING you can do to prevent it.  It just happens.  Yes I know all about PvP so you do not need to tell me about how it works and if the AI decides to wtfpwn your mages/archer they often do it anyways reguardless of trying to 'tacticly' block them in.

I am also sure with some effort, since it seems the playerbase overwhelmingly supports this atleast on a trial basis, it could be worked on further to make it even better.

[LongerShanks]

You absolutely can prevent them, at least 95% of the time. The times you can't, well shit just happens. Clearly, the status quo isn't perfect, but the alternative has many concerns that may make the situation very different in a largely negative way.

For traps: Use WASD keys. Click constantly around traps, or click very slowly. Change camera angles. Never initiate combat near traps, and if combat occurs anyways, take a few steps backwards between swings. Book it as fast as you can at the sight of an enemy to more friendly ground if you can. Friends in the way who don't see the charging manticore so you can't go back? Pretty realistic, however unfortunate.

For combat: Keep a finger on the D key (it should be there or close anyways) to prevent chasing. My favorite tactic- change Spacebar to Walk, and use it frequently in combat to move past enemies so more people can gang up on them (or use shift-click, but you would probably correctly mention that it can be much more challenging). Talk to your group to prevent overcrowding. Cycle frontliners. If you see a catastrophe waiting to happen then do not jump in with them. If your character is an 8 Int or 8 Wis combat junkie barbarian then maybe you should be getting into these situations! I'm sure there are other tricks and tips too.

But you know all these things. I'm not trying to patronize you plum, but I think you may be looking at very frustrating incidents and thinking that this is just the solution to the problems. My argument is merely that it isn't worth the cost of losing the ability to block, and could comes with a fresh can of worms.

As for optional "ghosting"... that seems very reasonable. It also let's everyone get used to having the ability and see if the potential problems are indeed problems.

[ExileStrife]

Whether or not this happens, I have a feeling toggleable ghosting isn't going to happen.  It will be one or the other.  Interesting idea though!