RE: The Conclave (Warning, lots of bitching and probably whining.)

[Dash]

Hey man, everyone loves having the power of the blue. It's the nature of the beast that the dms will always be able to move plots better.

I think one of the perks of joining the DM factions is getting that power of the blue, dude. You get much more access to the NPC support of what you are doing.

Otherwise, if you're that struggling PC and you want blue power, send in an app, post in the journal forum, go out and find dm's to support you. If its awesome, I think one will. There are avenues already set up for this kind of thing.

[Gippy]

I think you have a habit of ignoring the setting, the NPCs, and the story Meldread, and the expectation that quantum physics will somehow turn your visions into reality with elbow grease, diluded players, and levels. We've made you fishes a river, you like swimming, so why do you want to take the harder path and asphyxiate on the river bank while trying to walk?

We have problems, certainly, the biggest being a failure to encapsulate the awesome of our setting in a way that everyone can swallow and trip out too. It seems like you just don't get it, which is a shame. I was burned out on EFU:A, done with playing, but I liked the community and had the luxury of the DM door being open for me. I wanted to give back for a month or two and retire from the game. I read over the forums, I got inundated with backstoyt, and all of a sudden DMing was the last thing on my mind. I just wanted to play in the really amazing world that my fellow DMs had created and populated. You are not seeing the amazing. That is the heart of your post. Maybe you're not looking hard enough, maybe we've hidden things too well, I don't know.

[Caddies]

If a DM decides something needs to be stepped on, doing it with a squad of L8 Elite Stygians, Conclave Mages etc. seems a more elegant way of doing things than single NPCs that are higher level and better equipped than any player can aspire to. Representing power with numerous strong goons, rather than "Deus ex Machina" ubercharacters, lets player feel they can be powerful, while still accepting that the NPC population can also reach those heights and potentially outnumber them. Obviously Rubies are a special case, but even they should feel just out of reach of players by dint of superior gear and supplies, not totally outside the range of power available.

Sounds good but the truth is one half decent player with the right potions can stomp 10 generic NPCs easily. One DM cannot control without excessive pausing a squad of NPCs and so we usually just possess one, buff him up then go in. Its the easiest way to represent the force. If you have a viable alternative to this let us know.

That is how irrelevant NPC's are as a whole. They do little or nothing to drive a story, nothing to drive a plot, and contribute nothing. They are - in the best of times - useful window dressing to what is actually taking place.

Wrong. NPCs are a key component of the setting and most of them are actually more colorful than the majority of PCs. They have systematically driven stories and been central to a whole host of plots since EFU's inception years ago. They are not window dressing, they are just as relevant as PCs in the gameworld. Not sure how you could possibly come to any conclusion otherwise.

Thus, to correct this perception issue DM's merely need to think of ways to manifest support of PC goals and factions. If someone was to say, try and establish their own gang in the docks, then perhaps they'd get a few NPC's standing on the street corner with their gang's tag above their head. Even if it is two poor fishermen whose best weapon is a rusty and dull scaling knife, and their armor consists of torn shit-stained rags, the Power of Blue sends a message: this group has DM support, and if you aid them then the possibility of becoming the top dog in the docks can happen.

PCs and PC factions have got NPC support since the beginning of EFU:A. There have been so many instances of this; it really is mind boggling how you can infer it doesn't or won't happen. Blackhearth anyone? The fact is only excellent PCs and PC groups will get NPC support (if they desire it). If you could cite an example of any amazing PCs or PC groups that failed to receive DM support then perhaps we could move onto a proper debate rather than merely spew vague generalities all over the forums in overly long essay format.

If I have one complaint about the Conclave itself, it's the fact that I think it has way to many overpowered NPC's in it's ranks. I'm not certain of the exact strength of some of them, but I'm pretty sure they could just do whatever they wanted, with no way to actually stop them.

So you admit you have no real clue but ascertain things anyway? I am confused. In any case, you are wrong. The NPCs are not overpowered at all, if you must know. And, even if they were, what is wrong about having high level NPC leaders? Did you plan on killing them or something? Why do you lust to be able to be in a position to kill every NPC so badly? It is just perplexing.

I think somewhere in there is a middle ground that works. A middle ground that provides stability and continuity, but at the same time provides enough player feedback that everyone -KNOWS- that their character can do something to influence the server... in both large and small ways.

Are you suggesting we are not at that stage? That players are incapable of influencing the server in large or small ways?

[Caddies]

To give an example: There is a PC who has been working for a week, three weeks, a month or more on their own plot. The PC struggles to get people interested in their plot for whatever reason, but let's assume it isn't because their plot idea sucks. Let's just assume it's awesome, but for whatever reason, they're struggling to get people involved.

If the PC is struggling to get people interested then its for a reason. Either his plot is boring/uninspiring or he is just not a very dynamic player. There are no magical "for whatever reasons", its either one or the other, or a bit of both.

[Paha]

And yes, one thing most have to realise is that being epic and incredibly strong is earned, you do not just stand up to being one.

The strong NPC that often lead factions are there, portraying something like a years experience, similar that normal PC characters have just began having when they start their stuff.

There is always a possibility for leader positions in big factions and having some kickass power of influence, you just can't expect to get it just like that. Having such a person needs stable player, character and a concept that would have somekind solid influence to that faction, because if we only had PC leaders, it would be horrible how it changes every god damn two weeks, which is ridiculous. In the end there would 100% surely be few of leaders that are inactive, not available all the time, they get kicked ass by next corner thug and overcome again while they have just began something... etc.

NPC's are there for a reason; to secure a certain structure of the faction and it's activity, also giving somekind assurance for continuing of the story and new development.

[SkillFocuspwn]

What amazes me is that the people complaining on this post seem to view the DMs as the enemy. There are stories, there are plots, EfU will not work without NPCs to move things along, without DM factions to be proactive in!

I think people are simply being revolutionary for the sake of wanting argument, but 1) the guards have to be strong. If a group of 10 PCs could kill them all and become KINGS OF THE COLONY, the server would not work! As Strife said, PCs killing NPCs and then killing each-other does not make for a cool server.

2) PCs have played positions of power. Governor Ortred who commanded the Colony, Master of Arms Ferdinand who basically controlled the Armsmen, Retainers who could swing just about anything. But you'll notice they're all active positions of support. If someone could play the Count of a far-away City, all they'd do is sit in a room signing things and being deliciously evil

3) I, and I know a lot of other players who've spoken in this thread and haven't, think that everything is OK. We think (in varying degrees) that the Stygians are about the right level, that PCs are given the right amount of power and that NPCs are, for the most part, a very good part of EfU.

Finally, this server is INCREDIBLE! So much effort goes into it, so much time expended to create a game, for free, for us! And it's not even just effort, they've made something amazing, comparable to some of the best fantasy novels there are!

And it works, and PCs can be a collosal part of that, PCs are always the biggest part of that, because this isn't the DM's playground. So it may be imperfect at times, but when the DM team exerts the amount of effort they do and people are basically saying they don't want their help in making this world work, it makes me wonder whether people understand who gives us this server and works solidly, day after day, without pay, for our entertainment.

Rant over.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

After seeing some of the arguments, I'll apologize.

I was not in the brightest of moods when starting this. It has to do with the fact I feel like (despite not even playing) that the dms were neglecting player factions etc...that and I needed to cause a stir over something.

I apologize DeputyCool, it's just something I needed to get off my chest atm.

[Cricket]

I think Meldread brings up some good points myself...
 
Only MhO but... I made a PC specifically to join the Syndicate and be my main only to find out they had no spawn point and couldn't rest. Can somebody tell me what good a wizard faction that can't rest is worth? Sorry, not going to pay 10 gold a pop to use spells in a RP situation. It's one thing to do it before or after questing but not every time you use simple spells for RPing something. When brought up in threads and to DM's it always got a "Will look into it" response. So my Syndicate PC faded away.
 
As far as NPC's. Umm.. How about throwing one or two at the PC factions. (Tell me again how many NPC's the Steel Fists have?) It wouldn't hurt to toss an NPC into some of the more active or longer lived PC factions or maybe even a cool new PC faction concept that got DM attention from the get-go like the Bitch-Queen thing. I mean come on, DM factions start out with dozens and we're told they're needed only to have PC faction have to beg and kiss ass to get any at all or even one.

[Meldread]

Sigh.  I typed another long ass post, but decided against posting it.  In my previous posts, I worked hard to be both fair and as constructive as possible.  I can't really say anything new at this point, and it would just be regurgitating what I've already said.  If you don't understand or you can't comprehend what I'm writing yet, there is little more I can do to help you.

So at the risk of continuing a debate that we've had in the past, that can go on forever, and in the interest of not saying things that hurt people's feelings... I'm just going to let things stand for themselves.  

You can choose to read what I wrote, try to understand what I was saying, or you can ignore it and do whatever suits your fancy.  If you've already made up your mind, there is nothing I can do to change it, and thus I won't waste my time.

[Dash]

lol Cricket.

The Syndicate got a FREE faction house.

Yes, they do not pay for it. And they never did. Not a single gold.

And it is filled with cool shit and history from the beginnings of the server. Not to mention its own quest and various NPCs.

I don't think you should whine that you don't get to rest free too. If you want free rest save up and become a patrician. Don't cry because you didn't get enough things for free. Joining a faction shouldn't be because you want some perk to make your life easier. Your character should have an agenda that it pursues and aligns with that faction's.

[Cricket]

Ya know what... nm, not worth it...

[Minmaxed Librarian]

To clarify, there IS even a free rest point for the Syndicate, and has been there since the Archaeological Society days. There's just not a spawn point. The spot tagged as a rest area is right next to the camp-bed in the back room of the Syndicate. You just need to make sure you're close enough and are flagged as a faction member.

The Syndicate also is interesting as it's effectively a "retired" DM faction. The Library started off as the Archaological Society, a DM faction run by Sternhund. When Stern wasn't able to spare the time for a DM faction any more, he let it wind down to a PC faction with some nice perks and special areas, rather than end it totally. I think that's laudable, but it up to players to keep whatever holds the Library as an active and enjoyable faction.

With that in mind, I made David in order to spark the Syndicate back into action again. If you want more involvement, talk to me IC or OOC for ideas of plots or stuff to write about.

[Cricket]

You just need to make sure you're close enough and are flagged as a faction member.

I wish I had a dime for every time I heard this. I believe it was Talir that IG/IC could not "flag" my PC for that rest area. It made the PC in question (who had an "agenda" and personality) a bit useless. Even rattle shack guild houses have rest areas and they're not (as Dash so nicely put it)

filled with cool shit and history from the beginnings of the server. Not to mention its own quest and various NPCs.

Sorry, but I am a member and player here (or was). Weather anybody else has done what I have or not is besides the point. At least one player (me) has abandoned the Syndicate due to the DM's having more important things to do than care about a random PC's needs.

[Stormbringer]

Personally, I like what the Conclave has done. My biggest regret was always that  I'm not on when things are happening. I'd come on in the evenings (my time) and few people would be around and I'd missed so much plot RP with both PCs and DMs.
 
 
As former leader of the Syndicate, I saw two glaring errors the folks at the Thayan Enclave did not make:
 
One, there needs to be faction members of the Syndicate (ie bannered to it). People who split their time between two or more PC factions are wasting their time in my book. (again IMO) The faction should get that rest area set up and use it, as well as the chest reset so it can be used by members.
 
The second was as I said before, the leaders (at least) need to have the ability to be around when things are going on. To make the Syndicate's presence known.  Mistakes I made that hopefully the new leadership will learn from. At one point there were 22 active members of the Syndicate, you would have never known it, right?
 
The Conclave is an interesting unification of Wizards and such. I like the clouded purpose it has. I also like the stated neutrality of it. It does in fact cover the majority of the Syndicate's initial goals. That only offers the Syndicate a chance to expand, or redirect it's goals.
 
 
Just my 20 cents. (inflation you know)
 
SB

[Letsplayforfun]

If the PC is struggling to get people interested then its for a reason. Either his plot is boring/uninspiring or he is just not a very dynamic player. There are no magical "for whatever reasons", its either one or the other, or a bit of both.

Maybe that's part of the issue. A struggling PC that receives just a little DM 'public' attention will suddenly draw crowds, whereas a struggling PC that DMs look down unto and say "hum, he's not doing well enough" certainly won't get anywhere.

Maybe one way to phrase it would be: it's not great players that need DM support, it's the others. Sure: great players 'deserve' DM attention. Sure: DMs prefer doing what they enjoy and not what "others" enjoy. Sure DM attention is limited anyways (RL, playing times, time zones, whatever). But maybe it could be a win-win situation if helping out "not so great concepts" was tried more often. It's worth a try anyways.
 
Another thing that pops on my mind reading some posts: all DMs will tap players on the shoulder for good rp, give out dm loot. But few will "go public" and give out a signal that he's interested in such and such faction.

Another thing that comes to mind: DMs are chosen amongs the most pro-active players, so basically it does tend to take the most involving players "out of the game" for DMing, leaving us poor mortals with no more Caddies, Daz, etc. to tag along with... except when they decide they actually prefer playing than DMing. No offense meant to other pro-active players ;)

On a last note, when i read DMs saying they are disheartened, then on behalf of the eternally unsatisfied people:
- first i certainly want to apologize because we know the work you put into that game. Concerning the Enclave, everyone likes it, it probably just sparked some recurrent debate, that's all.
- second, don't take it for yourself or whatever: it's just us being so excited about something we like, we just can't get enough of it.
- third, this specific thread was much more polite and constructive than many i've read. People expressing "feelings" more than "facts", perhaps, but trying to voice out something calmly, so that's encouraging
- fourth, the last thing we want is DM burnout ;) !