RE: The Conclave (Warning, lots of bitching and probably whining.)

[DangerousDan]

As an aside, not being able to potion up and gank an NPC =/= being unkillable.

[Minmaxed Librarian]

As a further aside, I've made this PC purely to kick the Syndicate up the arse so that it's not just wizards advancing the researchy plots. The big problem with that faction was it was so open to everyone that it was a secondary faction for every PC involved with it. It didn't have the same level of dedicated PCs the Library or Society did IMO. DM factions are clearly a primary focus for a PC, but where something is a PC faction, even a well-supported one, it can end up being a side goal for everyone involved, since they don't push as hard for something they didn't have to app for and doesn't provide clear rewards.

As far as "The DMs pulled the Conclave out of their collective ass" goes, that's been brewing for ages. I can tell just from gossip threads that something was building, as I haven't been on when any of the events occured. I do though agree with Thomas in a way. The highest level, most influential PCs should be on a par with the strongest NPCs on the isle. It gives players a feeling that the world is shaped *by* PC achievement, not *in spite* of it.

If a DM decides something needs to be stepped on, doing it with a squad of L8 Elite Stygians, Conclave Mages etc. seems a more elegant way of doing things than single NPCs that are higher level and better equipped than any player can aspire to. Representing power with numerous strong goons, rather than "Deus ex Machina" ubercharacters, lets player feel they can be powerful, while still accepting that the NPC population can also reach those heights and potentially outnumber them. Obviously Rubies are a special case, but even they should feel just out of reach of players by dint of superior gear and supplies, not totally outside the range of power available.

[Meldread]

Meldread's Disclaimer:  I've re-written this post multiple times.  I hope my thoughts come across more... constructive... than Thomas' did.  Also, I have no idea what the DM's plan, plot or do in secret.  This is entirely from my perspective.  

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I don't think people are really understanding Thomas' point, in large part because of the way he chose to express it.  When we left behind the Underdark, the original focus of EfU:A was to be primarily player driven.  Things were to be built from the bottom up (by the players) rather than from the top down (by the DM's).

I think a large mistake in Thomas' argument was to use the Conclave as an example, because that doesn't really shine a light on the concern / criticism.  

That criticism, as I understand it is this:  If you were to place a PC in a position of say, the Count of Old Port or the head of the Armada, giving him the exact same NPC support and political power... what would happen?

Players would plot against him.  Players would attempt to assassinate him.  Players would, perhaps even more importantly, get a chance to interact with him.  However, these thoughts will rarely factor into the decision making or thought process of a player when it is an NPC.  Assassinate the Count?  Most people would OOCly consider you to be suicidal, and not wanting to lose their character, would not aid you - even if they would have otherwise aided you if it were a player.

To give a personal example, on my character Zhong, he rebelled when Ixpadia took over the Colony.  There were a number of issues that caused him to fail, but my biggest obstacle was not something I could overcome as a player.  It is, what I'd name:  The Power of Blue.

I'm fairly confident that, even if I had ultimately failed, I would have had an easier time convincing people to join Zhong in his rebellion had NPC's given him support.  Even if they were lowly peasants in rags, whose best weapon was a rusty spear, the mere presence of having Blue would have sent a message.

Most people in my experience, and I do believe that this is true to a large extent, that certain NPC's will die only with DM approval.  In essence this means it doesn't matter what the players desire, or how hard they work for it.  It doesn't matter how much a player plots, or how badass they become... because in the end, it's entirely up to the DM's.  It no longer resembles a joint collaboration of ideas and characters that come together to craft a story, but rather a story that is restricted by limitations by one side.

In all the years I've played EfU, and throughout my many character's I've interacted with and experienced wonderful DM factions and NPC's.  Yet, I can say with absolute certainty that those DM factions and NPC's make up 1% or less of my total experience.  They acted as a backdrop for player driven plots and stories, and at times - unless it was in our faces and we were directly impacted by them - players outright ignored the backdrop when it suited them.  How many times did our characters dream of turning Sanctuary into something far more than a piddling slave colony just on the edge of existence?  The backdrop said one thing, and yet because it was convenient for us we ignored it and went with another.

That is how irrelevant NPC's are as a whole.  They do little or nothing to drive a story, nothing to drive a plot, and contribute nothing.  They are - in the best of times - useful window dressing to what is actually taking place.

But when there is a perception that an NPC or a DM faction cannot be destroyed it acts as a limitation. An entire plot can and will develop around assassinating the PC Count, because PC's believe such is possible, but will not or rarely develop around a plot to assassinate the NPC Count.

In the end, I think the solution to the criticism I level is obvious.  If all things are possible, and my criticism is ill founded, then the Power of Blue is merely nothing more than an illusion; an issue of perception.

Thus, to correct this perception issue DM's merely need to think of ways to manifest support of PC goals and factions.  If someone was to say, try and establish their own gang in the docks, then perhaps they'd get a few NPC's standing on the street corner with their gang's tag above their head. Even if it is two poor fishermen whose best weapon is a rusty and dull scaling knife, and their armor consists of torn shit-stained rags, the Power of Blue sends a message:  this group has DM support, and if you aid them then the possibility of becoming the top dog in the docks can happen.  

It then effectively becomes like grease to a rusty gear, allowing people to get over their OOC fear of DM's not allowing something, by demonstrating that DM's support it's possibility, meanwhile leaving that possibility in the hands of players.

[derfo]

i like what you said meldread

[ExileStrife]

Rather than try to dress up this fact, I'll be blunt:

The only time we will let you kill an NPC is when it would make the server better, and that is entirely our own decision and not yours.  You could pretty much say that's the underlying reasoning for every "can I kill this NPC?" decision, whether it's a NPC in the wild, a beggar in an alley, or the King of Old Port.  If we don't want you to kill it, we're either going to flat out say "No," or we'll come up with a way for it to not die (and the easiest it to have our NPCs be really strong and chug heal potions, but occasionally we'll have more creative ones like Colonel Spitfire's Tricky Escape Tactic #131).

If a major NPC is the crux of many happenings going on, no, you can't simply walk up to it and kill it with a greataxe.  We have to be ready to fill it's gap and replace it with something.  Maybe that could be you, the player, who is going to fill that gap with the awesomeness your victory will bring.  Maybe it's a player faction, maybe it's another DM faction, or maybe it's just another NPC.  But if we don't think that gap could be filled by you or something else we have in mind, it's simply not going to happen.  If we didn't make that check, all that would lead to is players basically having a race to kill off content until there's nothing left but players themselves (or no players, if the case they pvp'ed each other).  If you think that's sustainable, you're wrong.

As for the conclave stuff, I haven't been a part of it at all but I've watched it's development from the DM side, and I was very impressed and pleased with how much PC inclusion was engineered into it.  There are seriously posts in the DM forums that track this development with referenced PC names and their actions and decisions and how it effected events that have already happened and how it will effect events yet to come!  Perhaps I'm giving away something I shouldn't be by letting out how big of a deal "The Conclave" actually is, as well as the fact that this has been planned for MANY months, but I think it is a really huge, good step that was handled brilliantly by our active DMs.  I expect there to be some players who are completely oblivious to the energy from both players and DMs alike that went into it's fruitation -- that's natural, but I also expect there to be players out there are able to see how it all came together and are hopefully entertained by it and are excited by where it's going to go!

Solid, concrete factions are important to have.  I think it was only a few months ago that someone (maybe it was you, Thomas!) made a long post about how flaky, one-shot plots weren't good for the long run.  I agree 100%.  I hope the new stuff that's coming will give a very solid foundation to play off of that everyone can find some way to enjoy.

[Efu_Executioner]

[INSERT GIANT WALL OF TEXT THAT COULD BE SUMMED UP IN MUCH LESS ELABORATE WORDS HERE]

[Drakill Tannan]

@Drakkil:

The Syndicate was given -numerous- opportunities to more deeply envelope themselves in the plot, or work against it, or do pretty much anything. The Faction seemed to unanimously decide they would rather do nothing at all.

My point. It wasn't fault of not having a DM behind our backs that the syndicate failed to be a large, main faction. It was basically what scruffy said, RL interfered.

But although not the DMs fault. If we had been a DM faction we would have succeded.

My conlcusion: DM factions help, but are not necesary. Player factions can do fine,

[Talir]

Instead of going into the things you can't do, which have been pretty much summarized already, I'll tell you a bit of what you can do. As the history is right now, we're entering a new period of government with one shiny new DM faction, another soon to come and one faction that's basically been around since the beginning (which too has gone through changes). Obviously, the very first PCs in all these factions will help create the image of these factions; not the NPCs. You have a government on the rise that is going to be led by the people (PCs) that really strive for changes and pursue interesting goals, being allowed the opportunity to change the city itself and how it is to work. You will also note, these are also going to be the leaders of PC factions, able to influence the city to their own agenda and faction.

Beyond that, you still have the abilities to pretty much ignore all this and pursue your PC's own goals individually and rise to fame that way. All possibilities are there for those who make the effort and take initiative. Of course we don't always see what you PC do or what your group is about. That's where the Personal Character Notes section comes in handy, or even approaching one of us on IRC and tell us about what you are trying to do. While we do have our say in how EFU:A is shaped, most of it we have left in your hands. Nothing is unachievable when the efforts are made towards them, but some of them may be very hard. Further your story, further your ambition but have fun while doing so. If there's concerns or thoughts, feel free to address them to us. Maybe you are wrong and we can ease your mind, maybe we are wrong and could do with a reminder?

The end of the note, the possibilities are there. Go wild.

[Meldread]

Re:  The Conclave  -  I'm pretty sure it's hugely awesome, and from what little I know ICly I am interested in it... either as a potential enemy, rival, ally, or member with my current character.  If I have one complaint about the Conclave itself, it's the fact that I think it has way to many overpowered NPC's in it's ranks.  I'm not certain of the exact strength of some of them, but I'm pretty sure they could just do whatever they wanted, with no way to actually stop them.  :p

One good thing, and one thing that I really liked about the Conclave was how it was introduced.  It was perhaps one of the better ways to introduce a new DM faction that I have seen done on EfU, ever.  It is always irksome when suddenly, a new NPC with an army shows up out of thin air, with little to no explanation.  The build up was nice, and made the whole thing much more believable.

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Re:  Bluntness  -  I'm glad there is finally some bluntness and honesty on this issue, because we've had this discussion in the past (where I've expressed the same opinion over and over).  The general push back has always been, 'Anything is possible, you just aren't .'

With it cleared up, such statements can now be made with a little asterisk at the end, with a tiny little footnote at the bottom:  "All things -are- possible, if you can obtain DM consent."  

Our difference in opinion seems to come down to how we view the NPC's.  Some people, such as yourself, seem to view them as the crux of many happenings going on," at least in part, whereas I view them more as backdrop.  I want to see things that are largely, if not entirely, player driven.  Certainly, there are events that are greatly influenced by player action for both good and ill.  But such events are largely -driven- by NPC's.  

There is certainly a very strong argument to be made in favor of prominent, powerful and largely static DM factions and NPC's.  They can provide continuity and stability, but there is also a flipside to that coin... one of stagnation, and the feeling (as a player) that you've done everything there is to do already.

Of course, I don't think the argument for continuity and stability can be made all that successfully at the moment, considering that we just went through two separate rulers of the colony, one interim ruler, and are currently under our fourth... all within the space of a few months. :p

I think there are pro's and con's to everything, and perhaps the best solution is a middle ground... and really, that's largely what I seek.  I don't want to see the server to become as you describe it:  "...all that would lead to is players basically having a race to kill off content until there's nothing left but players themselves (or no players, if the case they pvp'ed each other)."  

You are also correct in that I don't believe such a server is sustainable.  But I also think you overstate what would happen.  I think you overlook the deferential treatment players give to the Blue.  In my experience as a player, I have rarely run across instances where players, without provocation, have attacked a Blue NPC.  Even in cases where the NPC most likely deserved it.  Has it happened?  Yes.  However, I would say that this is extremely rare and every case that comes to my mind it has led to awesome things... usually -bad- things, but awesome nonetheless.  

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Ultimately, I would like to see EfU function as follows:  It is a collaborative story between players and DM.  Everyone plays a role, large and small.  DM's exist to provide context and background to the story, whereas players largely determine what happens.  Thus, the players determine who rises to power and who is removed, and it is the DM's who provide the consequences for those actions.  

I think somewhere in there is a middle ground that works.  A middle ground that provides stability and continuity, but at the same time provides enough player feedback that everyone -KNOWS- that their character can do something to influence the server... in both large and small ways.

[petey512]

I agree with meldread, I mean, I can understand why every NPC can't be level 3 or 4 or whatever; that'd be chaos, every random powergamer that logged on would have a hay-day. But I do think that a majority of NPCs should be relatively low level. The cannon-fodder, if you will. As for the important NPCs, yeah they should be hard to kill, but if a player has created a good gank squad that goes through the moderately difficult cannon-fodder, (Level 3-6,) and takes out the insanely infamous/famous whomever, (Level 9-20) then they probably have done something that deserves change; They have involved other players and created conflict.

[ExileStrife]

I should revise my statement about NPCs being the crux of many happenings going on.  While I agree that that is a viewpoint we could take (and perhaps often take mistakenly), I should say NPCs are more of a catalyst.  Not necessarily backdrop, but a base to build stories and conflict off of.  They are the catalysts that let us control "the system."  I'm going to use that buzzword a couple of times here.

Without NPCs and DM factions there's really nothing that can stir or sway the "the system."  If everything was JUST players controlling things, you would get a very static, unchanging system.  Somebody could try to break away from the norm, but because they have no special advantage or special force behind them, they'll just be hammered down or forced back into the norm.  A sociologist can describe this effect better than I can.

By having these magic things called NPCs and DM factions at our disposal, however, we can change the system.  If we see a cool little movement happing, we can stir it up more. We could probably do more of this, but it is hard!  Fortunately, if things are getting bland, we can also introduce our own movements which stir it up yet again.  And now that the system is moving, we can get more players bumping heads and doing cool stuff since it's no longer just one static mass.

And lastly, I'll just throw it out there and say I completely disagree with the idea that a world could be interesting and sustainable if it were entirely player-driven.

[derfo]

i don't really see how you could directly assume that is what it would be. while the existence of npcs is definitely desirable to an extent, i believe it's pretty far-fetched to assume that a mainly player-driver world would be bland.

a special advantage or force would easily prevail in a player's ability to sway the help of other players into a more powerful group to push whatever agenda

[Meldread]

Yes, ExileStrife I think that is how I largely view EfU working currently.

However, allow me to draw a comparison to how I view "the system."  It's like sitting in the passengers seat of a car, and giving directions to the driver.  You are influencing the route the driver travels, but in the vast majority of instances, the driver has already determined the destination.

In this comparison, the DM's are the drivers and the players are the passengers.  The destination is effectively the various major plots that take place on the server.  

I may be wrong, but I'll use the Conclave as an example.  From all my interactions with the Thayan Enclave PC Faction, they had worked to intimidate and control PC wizards to one degree or another.  Let's say this line of reasoning continued when the Conclave plot was first introduced.  The Enclave said:  "These wizards are rivals, they must be controlled, and we will do whatever we must to oppose them and their rise to power."

They may have had some success along the way, and there is little doubt that the Conclave would look somewhat different than it does today had they taken that path.  However, I don't think it's a stretch to say that they would have ultimately failed, no matter what they did, and that the Conclave would have come into existence in one form or another.

Thus, to go back to my comparison, the destination was already set from the beginning... it was merely up the Thayans and other players involved as to how they got there.

As most if not everyone knows or believes this to be true, the Thayan Enclave made the only real choice that made sense:  work with and join the Conclave, because any other action would have ultimately resulted in failure.... not because of any action they took or did not take, but because the destination was already determined.

In my ideal vision of how things would operate the situations would be somewhat reversed.  DM's would take the drivers seat when needed, for example, if things are growing stagnant or the pot needs stirring or what have you... but the players would be in the drivers seat the majority of the time.  They would set the destination through their goals.  The passengers seat is occupied both by other players and the DM's.  The DM's would have the most control over how and where the players end up, because they control the background and everything else that goes on.  

Every action has consequences.  If the players united to force out the Armada, there would be consequences to those actions.  The DM's determine those consequences, and even to a large degree how it is achieved in the first place.... because it's unlikely that the players would succeed without NPC support.

However, the critical issue here is that it was players who set the goal:  "Get rid of the Armada; achieve Colonial Independence."  They set the destination, and after that it was their actions that largely made it happen.

In our current system, most players would not consider forcing out the Armada, because they don't believe it's possible.  Therefore, it wouldn't happen unless an NPC rebel showed up to get PC's behind him / her in the first place.  

One of the issues I think we sometimes have on the server is a lack of pro-active players.  People are constantly told, "Go out and do stuff... be awesome."  But because there feels like there is a limit on what you can do and achieve, both alone and in a faction (DM or otherwise), it's hard to come up with something you feel might be reasonably successful.  Otherwise, you'd have to accept that whatever you attempt is going to fail, no matter how hard you work toward success.

I think if more people felt that achieving things (read:  "setting the destination") was possible, and that achieving anything was theoretically possible (read:  "setting the destination, but sometimes finding yourself in a bad neighborhood and getting carjacked"), we would see more pro-active players, because there is a clear incentive and pay off to being pro-active.

[DeputyCool]

The fact is that the DM's are going to run plots, and yes, those plots are going to have determined terminus'. I could have designed half of a faction, and hoped against hope that players filled in the blanks, but we would be having another discussion about how the faction was poorly defined and lacked substance.

What I am trying to say is, in my 5 years of history in NWN no one is ever completely satisfied, with anything, ever.

Not to sound like a child, but it is incredibly disheartening to have put literally -months- of effort into this, only to have people use it as the basis for a discussion on how terrible X is.

And whats worse is that primarily the people who have an issue with it, are not people who A) Had much of anything to do with it, or B) Don't play at all.

My main point is that if your issue is that some things are railroaded, then get over it. It's been that way forever. If your issue is that some NPC's are OP, that too has always been the case. Did people pick fights with Azzam, or Barkely? Do you think anyone could have killed Grigor Starag in a fight? What about the fact that all of EFU's Factions were completely 100% predetermined, and remained static for 2 years. No one seemed to have an issue with that.

EFU has always been, and will always be, able to be dramatically set by PC's. But, there is an extent. The DMs will always have plots, and factions and things that are going to happen, because if we don't make up the story, there simply won't be one that everyone can get in on. PC plots are fallible (Not that DM Plots are not). They have issues that DM Plots can avoid (mostly, visibility.). I refuse to feel guilty that I made a faction, and it came to being, and yes, it would have come into being whether or not PC's tried to stop it. Had they, though, things might have turned out -differently- and there certainly would've been a story involved. EFU is about that story, not about whether or not your PC get to decide the face of the entire landscape of the server.

[Meldread]

Not to sound like a child, but it is incredibly disheartening to have put literally -months- of effort into this, only to have people use it as the basis for a discussion on how terrible X is.

I don't want you (or any other DM's) to feel disheartened.  For me, the Conclave was more-or-less the best thing to come out of recent events, and as I said above, was perhaps the best roll out of a DM faction ever.  (In large part because they didn't just show up out of nowhere with a ready-made army, as sometimes happens with new DM factions.)  Aside from my issues with the number of seemingly high powered NPC's, it doesn't even really hit my radar.  Also, I think such a DM faction was sorely missing, and in the past advocated for a creation / elevation of a PC faction that fulfilled its role.  

And on the point of overly high powered NPC's... well that charge could also easily be leveled at the Armada.  (Or even worse... the Rubies.)

My posts are made in large part, because I want to be constructive to try and make things better, not necessarily because I think things are awful.  (I don't.)  I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I certainly don't know what it is like to be an EfU DM and what goes on behind the scenes.  Although, I am confident that many DM's work hard, and I don't want the impression given (by my posts or others) that there is a sense of people being ungrateful.  I don't think that exists, but I can understand why reading any negativity would be disheartening.

The fact is that the DM's are going to run plots, and yes, those plots are going to have determined terminus'. I could have designed half of a faction, and hoped against hope that players filled in the blanks, but we would be having another discussion about how the faction was poorly defined and lacked substance.

What I am trying to say is, in my 5 years of history in NWN no one is ever completely satisfied, with anything, ever.

You're definitely right on the last point. :p  I've never met anyone (anywhere) whose completely satisfied with anything, ever.

My suggestions / constructive criticism is more aimed at things I'd think would improve the server as a whole.  I just think the way you're looking at things is very different from the way that I see it, which leaves me believing that I'm not getting my point across effectively.

I don't think DM's shouldn't run plots, and that those plots shouldn't have a goal attached to their end.  They should and there is nothing in my mind wrong with that.... but it's the difference between having the powers a DM vs a player.  Because DM's have so much power, and the ability to influence and control everything, if DM's become more focused on running their plots it has the ability to suck the oxygen out of PC plots.  

What I would like is for people to step back, and look at the ramifications of their actions.

To give an example:  There is a PC who has been working for a week, three weeks, a month or more on their own plot.  The PC struggles to get people interested in their plot for whatever reason, but let's assume it isn't because their plot idea sucks.  Let's just assume it's awesome, but for whatever reason, they're struggling to get people involved.  

Then a DM creates an NPC to run a plot of their own.  (Not talking DM faction here, but a minor plot that might play out over the course of a couple weeks.)  That NPC, because it is a DM, (the Power of Blue) is instantly able to attract more attention than that single PC has been able to attract in weeks.  

How does that make the player feel?  I've been there, done that, it sucks ass.  It makes you feel as if you've wasted your time, and depending on how hard you've worked it can be more than disheartening.  I think most of us have been in that situation before, and can think about how that feels... and how, as a player, you wish you could attract that type of attention to what you wanted to do.

So I would ask this question:  What is more conducive to creating a happy and thriving community?  The DM going off and running their own minor plot, or seeing that a PC is struggling to get interest in theirs, and then helping that PC attract interest by wielding the Power of Blue in their favor?

In the end, I believe that this type of focus, one that empowers players, would ensure that our community not only grows but thrives.