RE: The Conclave (Warning, lots of bitching and probably whining.)

[Letsplayforfun]

Just to keep focus: everyone agrees DM attention to great players is good, needed, deserved.
No one wants attention given to that guy standing outside Kings for stuff to happen, or to that powerbuilt that never does anything special.

But there's that huge middle ground. Those 'average' ideas, plots, players, PCs, that maybe would pick off with somekind of nudge. Maybe even with a nudge they would still fail. Yes that would suck. But maybe they would become great.

Now obviously, DMs have limited time, and that's fine. And everyone appreciates the free work DMs put in for us.

But if it's only “it’s not my point of view”, then maybe you need someone to represent/help/ nudge that other part of the player base that you yourself aren’t interested in.

If it's only “it's EFU philosophy”, clearly defined as elistist and conflict-oriented (and i’m not being pejorative), then why not try to add something more to it? Not delete. Not drastically change. Just add more. Elitist is great when there’s 50 players to choose from. It’s not that great when there’s half that number.

Example:
Obviously, keep the big server History: Fall of sanctuary, Exodus, Building a settlement from scratch, Red Eleint, Ixpedia, etc...
Obviously keep those great plots made by great PCs/ players: De Olid, Proverson, Craddock, etc.
But add: Joe is just a brute and a rogue, with no real goal. Jane is just a botanist, with what you call a boring goal? Hey, how about making Joe steal from Jane? Tie the knot of the small stories.

Example: Joe is struggling to gather his band of thugs. He’s a thief but with a goal, but he’s struggling. You’d usually overlook him. But then you decide to make a burglary quest, and people realize he’s got some attention, and suddenly ‘involving people’ becomes easier,and maybe he’ll even find some clue to another goal on that quest that you’d enjoy more.

Anyways...

This kind of thread, we’ve seen others, tells us not everyone enjoys EfU the same way. Sure, it’s “your server”. Sure it's got a history, a "culture". But at a time when we lost about 50% player base (and more active DMs) in one year, are you willing to go on as if everything was alright for everyone? It's funny the same people who said "change is good" (EfU-> EfUA) are now saying "it won’t change".

Am i a 'herald of doom'? Am i being off topic? Tell me then: Would you say EfU's at it's peak? Still climbing? Or slowly on the down slope? Sure the contents/scripting/DM staff/community/ etc. is great, excellent even. But there's room for improvement, still. That’s what this kind of thread is about.

What’s there to loose, anyway? Will helping out more often “average” plots/players/PCs lessen EfU in some way?

So you don’t want to do it? Sure, each to his own. But how about getting someone who does? Will that break your world apart? Or will that help improve this game we all enjoy?

[Box]

lol

Caddies cracks me up.  You're making it sound like you need to handhold these boring characters every step of the way. All you need to do  to kickstart something cool and interesting is spend five minutes, make some random NPC for Jeffy the planthugger to talk to, who assigns him the task of finding a couple plants and then learn some herbalism from other players.

EFU:A's playerbase is comprised of players who 7/10 of them would rather be told what to do and be a follower rather than a leader. If you give these people shit to do, they will absolutely rock out. You don't need to hold their hands and babysit them every step of the way, you just need to say, hey here is some shit to do, go do it. If they manage it, cool give them some loot.  This way the players who feel neglected get  dm 'quests' and loot, while you get to spend the majority of your time fondling the sacks of the pcs you love, Caddies

Everybody wins.

[SkillFocuspwn]

I think the DMs are doing a fantastic job and it's really boring to hear people talking about what they -should- be doing to help you have a better completely free gaming experience that they pour hours of effort into.

[ExileStrife]

I don't think anybody aside from DMs who have tried it understand how outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating it is to blatantly "give a boring* player a nudge in the right direction." (That being communicating with the player directly, in most cases.)  I don't think there has ever, EVER been a single success story or happy story when any of us have proactively tried to steer a player towards a better direction.

Even passively trying to do it by paving the way in front of a boring* player is ridiculously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating.  (This being crafting plots, quests, dialogs, etc., that "lead" a player.)  However, sometimes this method actually works, but hooooleeeey-shit is it a lot of work.  But, like I said, sometimes that is rewarding for us.

*Let "boring" encompass Caddies' players for the time being

[Talir]

How to Rock my Socks Off

As long as you try what's posted here, in a greater or lesser extent, you are more than average. Sometimes we notice you, sometimes we don't. But we're there, feel free to drop a tell in our direction when you want to try something. And have fun. That's all that matters.

[ExileStrife]

How to Rock my Socks Off

As long as you try what's posted here, in a greater or lesser extent, you are more than average. Sometimes we notice you, sometimes we don't. But we're there, feel free to drop a tell in our direction when you want to try something. And have fun. That's all that matters.

Everybody should seriously read this every time they play.

[Tanonx]

Kind of a tangent, but...

I don't think anybody aside from DMs who have tried it understand how outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating it is to blatantly "give a boring* player a nudge in the right direction." (That being communicating with the player directly, in most cases.)  I don't think there has ever, EVER been a single success story or happy story when any of us have proactively tried to steer a player towards a better direction.

Even passively trying to do it by paving the way in front of a boring* player is ridiculously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating.  (This being crafting plots, quests, dialogs, etc., that "lead" a player.)  However, sometimes this method actually works, but hooooleeeey-shit is it a lot of work.  But, like I said, sometimes that is rewarding for us.

*Let "boring" encompass Caddies' players for the time being

Sorry to interrupt, but I've got a question related to this.

What exactly does it take to pull these off? My experiences in similar games to this (hard RP games with many more players than DMs) paint a somewhat simple picture, and as I haven't got a bit of experience DMing NWN, I'd like to know more. For example, the case of Jeffery the Botanist. From what I can tell, this is how it would go:

First, a DM goes through the various character/faction notes, trying to link a handful together to maximize the return on his/her time. In this case the DM settles on Jeffery the Botanist as a decent story force, adding in the new merc outfit on the scene. The DM sends a letter via forum to Jeffery, from a scholar, perhaps from the Conclave, or some foreign party. The letter details a rare herb only found deep in the wood, that possesses an extract with unknown magical qualities. It closes with an offer: If Jeffery will agree to use his specialized knowledge to harvest the plant and bring it back for research, perhaps the scholar's organization will provide protection, as well as recompense for his time and skills.

If Jeffery declines, the offer can be brought to other groups, if any are available. But, let's say he accepts. The DM then sends a similar letter tailored to the merc group, promising pay for transporting Jeffery safely. If they decline for some reason, and the DM can't get another group, NPC stand-ins could be substituted. If they accept, a time is arranged for everyone to be on and embark on the wonderful trip. An average sort of map could be created (the editor seems to be even easier than the TESCS/GECK, but I can't be sure), with various menaces, and perhaps plant-based obstacles for Jeffery to have a bit of fun with. At the end, the herb, perhaps cultivated in a long-lost outpost's garden, valued for it's magic nature, and surrounded by suitably-leveled forgotten supplies and armaments. The group can return to meet with the scholar, who will then take the plant back for research, either removing it from play entirely, or else planting it in a suitable research area, introducing a new reagent and allowing the group to feel that they've made a mark on the server as a whole. Perhaps the plot could carry on, with the implications of the plant's powers making for a small, but present subplot for many.

Such things, I suppose, could stretch or shrink depending on the will behind them. Maybe the nature factions catch wind, and have reason to want to stop the herb from being retrieved. Maybe a shady fellow knows the true nature of the plant, and goes about hiring less scrupulous sorts to get it for himself. Maybe the DMs just aren't feeling it, and simply engineer a short map with two or three programmed plant puzzles, opened at the appropriate time, for Jeffery to go through and enjoy while they attend to other matters.

So... Have I got this right? It does seem like more than a casual undertaking, but I'd imagine that any single player would feel well enough getting perhaps one of these a month, and, server population and group inclusion permitting, it might even happen more often. I can see a few points where I may be underestimating things, in between coordinating events with other DMs, how hard/easy it is to actually make a simple map, and so on. Still, I would very much like to know exactly how it's done.

[derfo]

I don't think anybody aside from DMs who have tried it understand how outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating it is to blatantly "give a boring* player a nudge in the right direction." (That being communicating with the player directly, in most cases.) I don't think there has ever, EVER been a single success story or happy story when any of us have proactively tried to steer a player towards a better direction.

I definitely feel like I've seen this happen before. The examples others seem to give to steer the botanist or whatever hardly seem 'frustrating,' even in the worst scenario. I for one, miss the days in the underdark where really simple shit by some of the older DMs seemed to spark plenty of enjoyment for others and I out of little. Now, that just doesn't seem to exist or is apparently "outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating."

[Caddies]

lCaddies cracks me up.  You're making it sound like you need to handhold these boring characters every step of the way. All you need to do  to kickstart something cool and interesting is spend five minutes, make some random NPC for Jeffy the planthugger to talk to, who assigns him the task of finding a couple plants and then learn some herbalism from other players.

Alright, so this PC who is struggling with his incredibly boring and non-involving botany 'plot' has a random NPC assign him the task of finding a couple plants. What then? He gets a reward or goes on a quest if he does this? You can see how this wouldn't interest any DM.

He can learn herbalism from other players regardless, and should be doing that as a botanist.

EFU:A's playerbase is comprised of players who 7/10 of them would rather be told what to do and be a follower rather than a leader. If you give these people shit to do, they will absolutely rock out.

No. No, no, no. DMs don't 'give shit to do' to these PCs. They should follow PC leaders and help them with their agenda. Then, when PC leader and minions are seen rocking out, they have deserved DM attention and will get it. That's how EFU works. EFU doesn't work by DMs rewarding attention and dropping plots and tasks and quests in the lap of reactive PCs who mill outside Kingsmans or get bogged down in the quest loop. You can just erase this mentality and expectation from your mind right now, because this will never happen.

[Caddies]

I definitely feel like I've seen this happen before. The examples others seem to give to steer the botanist or whatever hardly seem 'frustrating,' even in the worst scenario. I for one, miss the days in the underdark where really simple shit by some of the older DMs seemed to spark plenty of enjoyment for others and I out of little. Now, that just doesn't seem to exist or is apparently "outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating."

Examples?

[Gippy]

Given limited DM time/will DMs will run stuff for people that entertain them or others. Jeffery the Botanist sounds like a scrub. Maybe if he offered his services tending the sick of proactive faction X his story would get DM attention in the scope of a greater server story. Honestly, randomly picking so-so players out of the blue and placing them in plots does not often work. We often place threads that anyone can pick up on though. VP did this with the Ixpadia plot. Anyone could've taken his role as instigator and rebel. Why only 2-4 people contacted Ixpadia and asked to find out more, I do not know, but the players that did not don't deserve a reward unless they actively take a role against the players that did, and successfully defeat them. Kethra Marsk's coalition won a key battle, and decided the course of the war. That is sick!

[derfo]

Examples?

I'm going to assume you want examples of 'nudges,' as I'd consider myself at subpar pro-activity at points.

 - My first Seeker struggling to involve people in stuff, before Sternhund giving plots/riddles and the like to follow and find other people to do so with.

- My Ordinant, hints as some DM gave to help find thralls, which I'd consider a nudge to conflict.

- I remember Howland making that one giant that swirled around blood and such for our Garagosians, which sparked into reviving an already existing plot I would've not known about otherwise, which I thought was very cool and didn't seem like it took too much to make.

- I remember a pretty stagnant thrall character I made just being told to try to collect town uniforms, which was at least something significantly concrete to stir.

I'm not really going to mention anyone else's I've seen, since they probably recall how their's better than I ever could.

I know that some of these might not entirely fit the bill, and some more extreme to be considered nudges, or not even as fruitful as hoped either by players or DMs. I'm sure there's others I've not thought of.

While the outcomes of some might be less than ideal from a DM standpoint, I think that even some random NPC telling botanist 'yo assemble group and find far away plant' can help a lot. I'm sure most would agree he doesn't need/deserve the greatsword of the crazy gardens to slay the elephant of corrupted vines or something.

[Mort]

Nudges happen all the time.

Holding hand will never happen.

Its a simple question of time. If I could divide myself 30 times, I would give every PC all the attention they deserve for what they accomplish, alas, I can't and my colleagues cannot  as well -- we dont oversee everything and therefore cannot give true justice to every PC.

It is also not true that only great players (whatever those are) will receive attention. I tend to give attention to whoever enjoys it and I can SEE that they enjoyed it.

This isn't our job too, it is a hobby. We try to be fair in giving attention to everyone, and keep tabs... but it isnt very systematic. I wish I had a secretary that kept track of every quest I ran for who, etc. and so on, and who I need to watch out for. but I dont.

 I get the issue, but there is no solution to it... other than go: "I understand your point of view, and how it is frustrating." there is very little I can do outside of it without doing nothing of my life but slaving away on efu. I'm not interested by that.

[ExileStrife]

Question

You are pretty much exactly right in suggesting what we COULD do there. However, actually doing it is incredibly time consuming and you really have to be in the mood to do it. That's also a description of a "passive" nudge, not an active one. Sometimes those are very successful and we get a great sense of fulfillment out of it, other times it just becomes a monumental waste of time.

Deflaro, you are not a boring* player (usually! :P). I think we've made it clear that it's definitely fun for us to do these sorts of things with non-boring* players. Coming up with cool stuff for somebody who we know will make it even cooler is pretty much the most awesome part about DMing. Making a blind effort to throw a bone out to the boring* players is a major coin-flip that often turns out to be un-fun.

[core]

I don't think that Meldread's solution is particularly desirable -- a DM just handing a PC something hollow to do and rewarding him for doing it is essentially just gaming busywork -- the player is rewarded but hasn't really been shown how to be proactive and may not be inspired to do anything further, thus the server gains nothing and the DM gains little or nothing for his time.

The nudge is a far more viable and desirable concept, though unfortunately requires more time and effort than simply handing a player some ready-made interaction. It will, however, push the player to do this and that and show them that DMs aren't only logging in for the 'prominent' PCs. This is more like teaching a man to fish than just giving him a fish and, though it takes more time, the return should certainly be greater. It's an unfortunate fact that the (unpaid, remember?) DMs often haven't got enough time to run these sorts of things, combined with factors such as the innumerable amount of other goings-on to be tracked on the server, updating the module, building new areas/quests, DM and PC factions, flavour writing ... the list goes on.

It certainly warrants a mention that threads like this do very little to improve DM burnout -- I have no idea why people are so upset over a cool faction being made.

In any case, I'd definitely reccommend using the Personal Character Notes section to help DMs keep a track of what your character is up to (certainly makes it easier for them to run you something here and there) but don't stress too much over DM attention -- we're here to play a game!