RE: The Conclave (Warning, lots of bitching and probably whining.)

[derfo]

"struggling pcs fuck off and die, all hail the supreme pcs"

[putrid_plum]

I was very concerned for the way EFU:A was going for some time.  Yet, after playing and allowing the server to be what it is, I do see that is has/is turning around ALOT and the factions/events happening are filling gaps and making room for great story.  Often players want things handed to them, I have been guilty of this, without earning it.  You need to take risks and make YOUR character's story awesome so that they earn the respect needed to be a famous/infamous.  No one is born a bad ass.

Sure you will need DM help sometimes.  All you have to do it sit down, write something up, and show the DM your ideas.  They will often work with you and let you know what can be done and what cannot.  Also they will do what you need if you maybe set a time aside that works for both of you.  Patience is often something players do not have, I am also guilty of this.

Finially, you as a player can fight NPCs.  If you really had a great story reason that opened up new opportunities... you just COULD stomp the Stargazer Village into dust, making them scatter or whatever happens.  Most NPCs are not invicible, they may be tough, but get support and supplies.  Work hard, hell you yourself CAN GAIN NPC support if you wanted to go that way.  Use those 'powerful NPCs' for your advantage.  Think outside the box and do what you have to.  Fear is often the reason most things never get done.

[Dhund]

Over the years I've played NWN worlds, I've found one common rule to factions. Activity is lifeblood. DM activity is 'easier' (albeit, harder to get) to have keep up general activity throughout a faction, when they know there is a reward if they do it.
 
The thing I've seen elsewhere thats caused factions to keep it up was a Faction DM. His main duties were in soldifying the faction system (giving requirements and rewards for numbers of active members and the like), but mostly, each faction was able to choose a block of time on a certain day. One hour or so, where the faction would provide what they wanted to do earlier in the week ('We want to go investigate the caves on the other side of the little village!", and they'd go. (And if they didn't provide a goal, they MIGHT get a random event, or just have wasted their weekly chance) Now, they (and we!) can go exploring any time. Most don't, because theres no real reward after the first time. If there was a higher chance of interaction, you'd see more people doing it.
 
Summing up, i'm not saying devoting a DMs time like this would work for EFU or even be possible, but even minor amounts of DM time make a huge change in how a PC faction will approach the world.

[SkillFocuspwn]

House Proverson, House Mendon, the Thayan Enclave, the Lathanderites, the Aumantories, the Leviathan's Lament dudes.

I know this might sound like a basically dickish list, but I think the main points from the players here are that the PCs do not get support, or the PCs get pushed idly aside when the BIG BAD PLAYERS come and crush.

I would say Proverson was the second most politically powerful person on Ymph, in his time. It gained an estate and did a crazy amount. Mendon became Vice-Consul of the Colony, second only to a 6 charisma Dwarf called Burt.

I would say EfU was, save for some small events, static. I would say EfUA is, as much as can be hoped for something on NWN, completely dynamic.

Players can become the bigshots and I don't believe they achieve such solely by grace of riding upon the back of a DM movement and I think a lot of this is people picking at straws that can't be changed and just makes you sound ungrateful.

NPCs -have- to be powerful, otherwise they'll just die to Franky the Knife, who's got all his buddies and himself up to level 9 and want to become Kings of Ymph. However, the Rubies were about 5 in number and effectively useless unless you wanted to make an announcement of "I AM THE COUNTSLAYER", and you're completely ignoring the fact that those 5 men were all that the Ziggurat had in the past month.

And, I'll be blunt, if a PC pushing a plot doesn't get success, that plot does not deserve to be picked up, given a glory horn and pushed by DMs, because that just takes away the power that PCs can achieve, which is what a lot of you are complaining about in the first place.

I don't mean to toot my hat, though.

[Stormbringer]

I think part of it may come down to personal responsiblity. I know the DMs are available in IRC and are often willing to help with a concept if asked. I also know that many of the people who may seem favored by DMs have no qualms about asking them for RP or help with things.
 
I agree some people may be more fun to RP with or for than others, it's just the nature of RPing with 50+ people. I'd suggest asking the DMs for help, maybe some direction. In my experience, they've been very accomodating and willing to help. I think that once a DM sees your willing to accept help (because not everyone is) they may take an interest in the faction at hand (or PC).
 
I've had DMs ask me if they could run things for factions, and had them flat out tell me certain ideas I've had wouldn't work. I guess what it comes down to is:  ask a DM, maybe two. I suppose the only issue if it ever happened would be, if you asked DMs and they turned you down or said no. But I can't really imagine that happening.
 
That's just my IMO of course.
 
SB

[Caddies]

You know, there is a very clear and concrete example of when the "power of blue" was violated: the Isle of Bliss and the Sated Shark Inn.

When that area was destroyed by a PC group, it had the following side effects:

1) It nearly completely eliminated the oldest and most significant faction on the server (IMO, at least) the Seekers.
2) It killed a PC who had escaped the Underdark and earned a place as an NPC in that inn.
3) It removed a strategically important safe zone that all but wrecked any chance that the opposing PC faction had at mounting an effective opposition.
4) It removed a cool and flavorful quest from the server.
5) It removed a cool and flavorful rest and role-play area from the server.

What's more, if the destruction of the Sated Shark provided any tangible benefit for the PCs who accomplished it, I am not aware of it. Even if it did, the benefit was for that PC group and that group alone, and only for the short lives of those PCs. No one else got anything good out of that. On balance, the overall impact of that event on the server as a whole was a net minus.

To clarify, the Sated Shark was going to be removed from the module by DMs because it didn't fit. A pleasantly cartoonish bubbly little inn with hot tubs beneath palm trees outside, a veritable slice of homey paradise, on an otherwise dark and dangerous jungle island? Didn't make sense. Even the DM who created that area agreed it was out of place. And so, rather than merely deleting it, Mort ran a mini-plot regarding it and involved one of the at-the-time major PCs and his crew on the server in its destruction. Sorry if this offended you!

I wish I had a dime for every time I heard this. I believe it was Talir that IG/IC could not "flag" my PC for that rest area. It made the PC in question (who had an "agenda" and personality) a bit useless.

So your PC was rendered 'useless' because you couldn't rest for free? I do not understand. In any case, Talir was a new DM at the time and probably wasn't up to scratch with how to wand you properly. You should have merely asked another DM. But mostly, I think you are either being dramatic. If your PC REQUIRES free resting not to be 'useless' than you need to be putting more thought into your PC concepts.

---

As for the general vibe of 'DMs should reward not-so-great concepts' with the 'Power of the Blue'...why would we do that? Rewarding mediocrity was never a part of the EFU philosophy and never will be. I mean, practically, it would go something like this:

Someone create 'Jurg the Black', a min-maxed half-orc whose agenda is becoming the king of the Gobsquat. His goals are forming a crew of bandits who mindlessly kill PCs to amass a fortune and 'badass' reputation so he can then go on to kill all the goblin NPCs and set himself up there. What you're asking is we give him some NPCs and support?

Or what about Jeffrey the botanist. His PC wants to go around Ymph and collect seed from all the native plants and plant them in his own area to collate information. He wants a DM to give him information on all the different types of plants and to watch him as he wanders the island collecting seeds. He needs these seeds spawned in his inventory too. He also would like an area on the module he can use to plant them in a large garden. Do you want us to follow this incredibly boring PC around while he does incredibly dull things and reward him with a free area so that this otherwise 'struggling' PC can get some PC recognition as an amazing botanist?

I could make a thousand more examples, less or more extreme. But the fact is this:

DMs have limited time. We don't get paid. And so, we tend to follow around and give support to those players and PCs who embody what the EFU philosophy is all about: playing unique and quirky characters with interesting agendas and involving goals that foster memorable conflict (PvP or otherwise) and involve others. These PCs are exciting to watch and have deserved DM attention by virtue of the depth of their character and his agenda.

This is not going to change.

And so, my advice to everyone is this: focus less on worrying about what PCs are getting what from which DMs, writing long-winded posts on forums about 'the state of EFU' when your information is incorrect and spreading negativity in secret IRC channels.

Instead, focus on just making a sweet PC. You don't have to be a great leader (trust me, playing an awesome minion is much more fun and less stressful!) or have a "30 steps to become the next Count of Old Port" elaborate goal system. Just make your PC interesting. Give him some odd habits, some weaknesses, a personal code, things like this. Give him an agenda. Have him stand for something, believe in some ideal, work towards some tangible goal. Make sure the goal is not boring (ie the botanist) and that it necessarily will be oppositional on some level to other PCs, so that you have a reason to join someone who shares your PC's goals loosely or failing that, a reason you can rally PCs to you.

[Meldread]

So your PC was rendered 'useless' because you couldn't rest for free? I do not understand. In any case, Talir was a new DM at the time and probably wasn't up to scratch with how to wand you properly. You should have merely asked another DM. But mostly, I think you are either being dramatic. If your PC REQUIRES free resting not to be 'useless' than you need to be putting more thought into your PC concepts.

I think the player in question believes he needed free resting for the second puzzle quest in the Library.  Without spoiling it, it would be reasonable to come to that conclusion if you don't know how to solve it.

Also as a side note regarding the Library puzzles:  I spoke to Stern awhile back, as I had advanced as far as you could go... and he told me that they weren't completed.  He had plans which he decided not to pursue.  As a result, outside of fun and entertainment, it's pointless to do the puzzles until a DM decides they want to do something with them.

As for the general vibe of 'DMs should reward not-so-great concepts' with the 'Power of the Blue'...why would we do that? Rewarding mediocrity was never a part of the EFU philosophy and never will be. I mean, practically, it would go something like this:

Someone create 'Jurg the Black', a min-maxed half-orc whose agenda is becoming the king of the Gobsquat. His goals are forming a crew of bandits who mindlessly kill PCs to amass a fortune and 'badass' reputation so he can then go on to kill all the goblin NPCs and set himself up there. What you're asking is we give him some NPCs and support?

Yet, it's those people who are mediocre or who suck who need the most help.  Really, Caddies think about it.  Not everyone on the server is going to be great.  In many cases, I don't need DM assistance to get people interested in something I want to do... other people might struggle to get people involved.

Yes, it might be because their idea sucks, but that is one reason the DM's have been picked from the best of the player base.  You can take their shitty idea and make it awesome.

To take your example:  Obviously, we don't want Jurg the Black the min-maxed half-orc killing off PC's to accomplish his goals.  In large part because it isn't fun for other people.  Now, you can approach this two different ways.  You can look at what Jurg is doing and say, 'I don't want to reward him with DM attention because I don't want to encourage his behavior...'  Or 'I will show Jurg the consequences of his actions.'

If killing people brings about greater rewards than letting them live then people will be inclined to kill.  You don't want to reward them in that fashion, but Jurg's actions do have consequences.  First, he'll most likely face some type of exile or on pain-of-death should he show his face anywhere near an NPC who will enforce the law.  That limits his travel.  Second, he'll have a bounty on his head.  

Now, what can you do as a DM to influence Jurg's plot and involve other people?  I'd say create a bounty hunter NPC who tries to get other PC's who are capable of fighting Jurg and then having a quest in which people try and collect the bounty on his head.  

Alternatively, if Jurg is so awesome that most players would be stomped going up against him; you can have NPC bounty hunters lead him into a trap set by the Stygian Armada.  

In effect this has three benefits:  First, makes Jurg's past and potential victims feel as if there is some sort of justice involved.  Jurg cannot act with impunity.  Second, it makes Jurg's player feel like the DM's are paying attention to him.  Third, it doesn't reward Jurg for his actions.

On the flipside, let's say Jurg is really causing problems.  His actions have the potential to drive people from the server.  What could you do to as a DM to put a stop to it?  There are two basic things:  You could OOCLy tell Jurg to stop, tell him his character concept sucks, and that he's ruining the game for others.  This could have the effect of chasing Jurg away from the server; as we all know one bad character concept of this nature does not necessarily mark the scope potential for a player.  Or you could wield the Power of the Blue to help steer Jurg in a different direction.

Since you know Jurg is looking to recruit bandits for his plan, maybe he encounters a mercenary willing to sign up to his cause.  You could then wield the Power of the Blue to steer him away from his actions, meanwhile showing him clearly why doing what he is doing is hurting his cause.  Maybe that former mercenary is an exiled goblin from Gobsquat, making him useful to Jurg because he has insights into how he might accomplish his ultimate goals.

Let's say Jurg wants to hide out in the docks, since he can't visit the Ziggurat (bounty on his head).  Hey, guess what?  Those gangs see Jurg and think he's getting a little uppity.  Maybe he gets a stern message that he needs to begin giving tribute to them in order to avoid having his legs broken.  Eventually, this might cause Jurg to be forced out of the docks and into actual exile in the wilderness.

There are tons of ways of dealing with the character, making the server fun for the player, and ideally making the server fun for others.

Or what about Jeffrey the botanist. His PC wants to go around Ymph and collect seed from all the native plants and plant them in his own area to collate information. He wants a DM to give him information on all the different types of plants and to watch him as he wanders the island collecting seeds. He needs these seeds spawned in his inventory too. He also would like an area on the module he can use to plant them in a large garden. Do you want us to follow this incredibly boring PC around while he does incredibly dull things and reward him with a free area so that this otherwise 'struggling' PC can get some PC recognition as an amazing botanist?

No, I want you to steer this player toward being awesome.  Rather than looking at the PC and saying, 'This character is dull as shit, I'm ignoring him now...'  Why not steer him toward the Stewards?  He could join their faction and the druid PC's could work toward helping him out.  If the Stewards wouldn't work for the character concept, why not steer him toward the Conclave?  

The goal of steering the character in the right direction would be for him to get other players interested in his goals.  Run a quest where Jeffrey the botanist has to travel through the incredibly dangerous jungle in order to study a very rare plant.  That quest could be awesome.  It'd make the player feel awesome, and would require him to involve other people.

Instead, focus on just making a sweet PC.

Here is the fundamental flaw:  Some players, frankly, are never going to be great.  Some will make shitty characters, always.  But ultimately, behind those characters are players who come to the server to have fun.  If you only focus on the most awesome PC's then ultimately what you create is a server of elitists.  That is the consequence of your actions.

I understand that a DM doesn't want to spend their valuable time working with a character who, in their judgment, is boring.  You earned your position as DM because you were an awesome player.  Does it make more sense to use that talent to make a sup-par PC awesome, increasing the enjoyment for that PLAYER (meanwhile involving OTHER players), or does it make sense to merely ignore that player and his or her character all together?  Which act does more to develop our community?

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Okay. Both sides have points, and there is -always- room for improvement on both sides.

Let's get over it.

[BigBadThief]

Not many are really going to read that Meldread but I'd totally disagree. What you're pushing for there rewards the reactiveness that makes being pro-active near useless. Why would anyone take risks or go for something massive if they can get the same loot, reward, xp, dm attention or whatever else by sitting in front of the Kingsman tavern being invincible until something is spoon-fed to them. Promoting that kind of behavior is just silly.

[Tankerman]

I'm not so sure that's what he meant. Just saying.

[Meldread]

Who said anything about rewarding people who weren't pro-active?  I think most people who are not pro-active either need a nudge in the right direction, lack clear character goals, or don't know what they can accomplish.  

In Caddies first example, Jurg the Black was pro-active, but in a way that we wouldn't want to promote.  Unless you consider any DM attention at all a reward, then Jurg would constantly suffer from the consequences of his actions.  As a murderer, he can't go onto the Ziggurat.  In the docks, the gangs don't like him because he's a freelancer.  He wants to become King of Gobsquat and so the goblins don't like him.  That pretty much isolates Jurg from the rest of the playerbase and quests.  There are consequences to your actions, and Jurg is experiencing them.

In his second example, Jeffrey the botanist had a clearly defined goal but needed a push in the right direction.  All it needed was the NPC Librarian to send him a letter, to see if the rumor was true:  Jeffrey was a famous / aspiring botanist (whatever is relevant to his backstory).  She just so magically happened to be interested in expanding her collection of books on that knowledge, and would be happy to sponsor an expedition to find a rare unnamed plant located deep in the Elfwood.  She then name drops the newly established PC mercenary group faction which had been publicly advertising their services and recruitment, as potential people to speak to about the expedition.  Suddenly, Jeffrey becomes pro-active because he's now organizing an event and it was all easily accomplished in a single letter.

Furthermore, since Jeffrey's player is so interested in this type of stuff, and most DM's no doubt find it boring as hell, Jeffrey can be leveraged to give names to new plants and lore surrounding them.  That information could then become cannon (saving the DM's work), and in the future incorporated into new herbalism recipes.

Hell, if a DM wanted to extend Jeffrey's usefulness then he'd simply need to have an NPC ranger be hired as a guide for the expedition.  That NPC could then find ways to steer Jeffrey into investigating the Stewards, ensuring that Jeffrey remains pro-active.

With a few continual nudges now and then, Jeffrey could become an awesome character, that goes on amazing and dangerous adventures, deep into the heart of the island (and sometimes beyond!) studying exotic plants.  

However, no where in there was anyone rewarded for not being pro-active.

[9lives]

bring back cybor island

[morva]

tropical island with secret hidden temple in the old closet. HURRAY

[Kotenku]

cyber island was a creepy place. everybody believed that the inn's proprietor was an illithid thrall, and that the island was meant to lure unsuspecting visitors to their deaths.

should have stayed in, tbh. the place was creepier than the sunken enclave

[AKMatt]

cyber island was a creepy place. everybody believed that the inn's proprietor was an illithid thrall, and that the island was meant to lure unsuspecting visitors to their deaths.

should have stayed in, tbh. the place was creepier than the sunken enclave

Wait, he wasn't an illithid thrall?