RE: The Conclave (Warning, lots of bitching and probably whining.)

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Well, I suppose I have a piece to say. This is similar to RwG's rant, but instead of the gank squad, I am describing the DM relationship with player factions...

Yes, they are better. You can get guild houses, support, claim territory, ALL OF THIS AND MOAR. It's screamed at us, and I hear it! In old EFU all of this was near impossible to get and player factions had it rough, really rough.

But nothing really changed in regards how a DM views a player faction.

It sorta started when Sharboneth came and went, "You either accept us or the Manchakans come and enslave you all."

But I digress, this is about the new dm faction.

[Not to put down DeputyCool.]

The Transcendent Conclave particularly makes me go, WTF? We had -two- wizardly player factions, the Thayan Enclave and the Syndicate. Both are rather prominent. I am not saying the development would of been different, but I honestly feel like the DMs could of handled this better. Would it not have been better to have the two factions, independently, work toward this achievement? Make the players feel like they had a hand in the rise of a new dm faction? Something they evidently shaped to THEIR views according to whom succeeded?

It's a DM faction, I get it. It obviously requires super powerful NPCs that are ridiculously hard to kill and they spam heal potions and have an AB of 20+ and do 40+dmg a hit and of course require an army of badass npcs probably just as mean to fulfill their objectives, I get it!

But I feel like this is really getting to the point that the DMs are making NPCs so powerful...it's like, PLOT SHIELD, SORRY, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO THIS NPC IS GONNA SURVIVE UNTIL I SAY HE DIES BITCH. This sort of puts a halt to anything a PC wants to do if a particular NPC, say, Trenada, says, "NO." What will the PC do? Nothing, he knows he cannot win, he knows he cannot gank trenada without the DM first pausing and cuing up Displacement haste and divine power pots (or if it's mort, no need to pause.) or if you get him near death you know he'll down a heal potion.

What is a player faction to do? I am not saying that the DMs should scrap there plans (well, I kinda am) because some PC wants to do something that will go against their own carefully laid plans- but I believe that NPCs should also be able to loose.

I mean, the Thayan Enclave I hear has AWESOME players, incredible plots, and more. The Transcendent Enclave really made them quite irrelevant. I am sorry PC wizard factions, the Transcendent Enclave has made you all obsolete. And to add hurt to injury, we did this without having you insist in any form whatsoever, I just made an all powerful NPC with two other powerful NPCs make the Enclave come up. WOW. [please note sarcasm.]

I think it's time for NPCs of import to start being level 2 or 3 again, and a single greataxe should be able to kill them.

I am getting sort of tired of the high level +20 ab NPCs, yea know?

Disclaimer: This post was made to obviously put some backs up and cause a stir. But this post is probably a bit extreme, and I will likely expect it to be trolled mercilessly. Then locked. Go ahead, say your piece.

[DeputyCool]

I think you're wrong.

Just because there are PC Factions that involve Wizards does not mean that a DM Faction cannot add to the setting. For instance, the Thayan Enclave still exists. It fulfills a very different role. Nearly all of the Thayan Enclave Faction has joined the Conclave, and enjoy it immensely.

As for the Syndicate, I am sorry but a faction that boasts perhaps 3 PC's simply did not fit the bill, imo. Not to insult their efforts, but they were not quite as involving as a DM Faction.

Additionally, both factions played a role in the forming of this faction, from the very beginning.

Primarily, I think you are attempting to find fault with something that you do not know that much about. You clearly have not even talked to the players in those factions, at least not the Thayans.

[VanillaPudding]

I think some more public information and actual direction of the DM factions would be nice but hardly feel that having this conclave makes any other wizard organization irrelevant. That carries about as much weight as saying that the Stygian faction makes mercenary characters and groups useless.

If you don't like the faction or want to work against it then you can always take that path just as easily as joining it and doing other things.

[DeputyCool]

We're in the process of a major overhaul to the website, and such to update things to today's factions/NPC's/etc.

[SkillFocuspwn]

As a Thayan in the Conclave, I state that firstly:

Both the Syndicate and the Enclave had a lot to do in the formation of the Conclave and it was in the Enclave's list of goals to assist in the creation of a Council of Wizards (which we're now doing)

And Secondly:

That both factions can still exist and even benefit from the newer DM faction. The Thayan Enclave is not only very happy for the Conclave, as DC said we've almost entirely joined it and we're still working on our own goals!

While what you're saying is valid, you're speaking for people who actually have entirely different opinions and unless you've got a different argument than this, I'll just tell you: We're all cool with it! :D

Also, PCs can still hold as much if not more power than NPCs, in this faction and any other. It's just the power of proactivity rather than the power of stability.

[Letsplayforfun]

A good issue TNVW raises here. I would urge the DM team to pay attention to his arguments, even if they are excessive.

I understand EfUA is a DMs sandbox's too, but a PC sandcastle feels a bit helpless before and DM stone forteress.

From outsider's point of view (i'm not logged on much these past 2 weeks), it does look like instead of getting help, a fragile PC faction just got run over. It's a feeling that's been mentioned before, if i'm not mistaken.

Obviously most people will hop on the bus with that cool new faction, but some might've enjoyed making/leading the bus.

Just my 2c. Have fun playing ;)

[DeputyCool]

Again, they did help/lead it, so I think primarily people are incorrect in their complaints, and mostly just uninformed.

[Paha]

Yes, I gotta as well go with Deputy here. Gotta say we kinda did lotsa stuff and we were one PC faction with syndicates folks from earlier to do alot to get in this point where this new DM faction was formed.

If you have not noticed, those leader figures of those PC factions or involved are even at higher ranks than others...

It's cool to be worried, but you did not quite ask about how it turned out. It was fully IC, and we were striving for it all well and good, and are quite pleased with our position regarding it.

I would like to explain more as well, but quite frankly, they are fully IC and in game little-know-hows, but I can say, this is where we were going for.

Thayans are enjoying.

[derfo]

i agree with thomas but not exactly the way he words it, nor exclusively to the spellguard 2.0 or whatever

imagine this train track that is efua and the story progression is the train except there are like these boulders on all the forks in the road

[Drakill Tannan]

I agree that DMs should have better recocnised the efforts of PC factions and built the world arround them. For instnace a thayan DM factions would have been just awsome and i think they deserve it.

I do feel overrun by the big badass DM faction that the conclave is, being of a minor player faction. However this doesn't kill the Syndicate, but instead makes it react and counter attack, how do we do that? We change our aim and our goals, and fit again on EFU:A.

[ScruffyMcSmirkalot]

Eh.... I'll comment on this, since I basically got leadership of a PC faction shoved onto me (All your fault, PapaMidnite. :P), and my character Walther is the "Chief Engineer" of the Syndicate...
 
To be honest, Thomas... I have to agree with DeputyCool's sentiment concerning the Syndicate. I've done a some (few) things to contribute to it, but generally the faction itself has been in decline, or at least I think, ever since Kotenku went and killed off Landor (Last time I pay nearly 5000 gold to ressurect a PC, go to hell Kotenku ;)). It's a great concept, it was meant to be all-encompassing, but due to certain issues, mostly called "Real Life", the Syndicate never reached its potential to be the grand "neutral" center of research, cooperation, and information sharing that it was meant to be. I don't really fault anyone for that though. We've had some DM involvement to try and help us out with Zyphaem and what-not... but wasn't the "defibrillator" that I believed the DM intended it to be for the faction. It still has a lot of potential, and could grow more encompassing in the future, but... it isn't that faction right now.
 
As for the Thayan Enclave, well, they're a great powerful PC faction I guess (Though I don't know all that much about them), but they're far from being an established organization that serves the purpose of a center of research for the betterment of all, or, at least, that's my outsider's perspective.
 
The Conclave fits this role well, or seems to, and I won't pretend to know the future role this faction plays in the over-arching plot of this server, but obviously DeputyCool created it because the "tool" that already served that purpose was currently inadequete to drive the plot forward, and so waved his magic DM wand and conjured up a bigass flying ship with a shitload of magically-armed-to-the-teeth NPCs to plant the seed for this faction to move the plot along.
 
This is fine, if that's your playstyle. Player and DM Factions both have their strengths and weaknesses. The Strength of a DM Faction that relates to this is that it's stable, and won't deviate from its designated course unless the DM intends it to, unlike a player faction which varies on how often the players are IG, and if IRL takes precedense, or the players get bored, a booming, great faction can completely fall into the gutter.
 
However... there is some wisdom to be found in Thomas's words...
 
With the continued introduction of "All-Powerful" (i.e. untouchable to PCs unless they have a deathwish) DM Factions into the everyday game world, and using them as tools to move plots forward, you're also conditioning the playerbase to follow the DM Factions forward, rather than lead themselves. Hence... complaints about players not assuming leadership or pushing their own plots forward after they've been conditioned otherwise are often unwarranted. There's nothing wrong with this story style, certainly... it's stable, controlled, and allows the DM to express the story the way they want to, with an almost guaranteed "proper" ending.
 
I often feel like I get mixed signals... though I'm new to this specific server, so that's bound to happen. I like to think of it as if a man gave you a truck (under his specified terms), and says "You can drive this car anywhere...", pausing a moment to watch your reaction, and then points to a narrow alleyway, before continuing once again "... in that alley there!". Now of course what he says is true, you can drive it -anywhere-, and if you truely wished to drive further, you could smash your car through the alley walls, possibly destroying the car, the walls, and yourself... along with alerting the authorities, being brought to court for lawsuits for property damage, and if anyone was killed, perhaps manslaughter and eventually the death penalty... but you can technically drive anywhere.
 
Which is all fine and dandy, but don't be surprised if the playerbase gets confused. I've been having a blast, personally.
 
On a final note... Well, House Greywood and Black Company has a Castle, a claim to territory, soldiers, and all sorts of stuff... so let it not be said that PC Factions can't achieve anything. They're just less reliable as tools to push a DM Plot is all.
 
...
 
Hope I didn't offend anyone with that braindump there, just hoped to offer what I've observed thus far with my first character on this specific server. I usually like to figure out how game worlds work and operate, so I try to observe it from all sorts of angles. Been having a fun time personally, though this is the guy that RPed his dead character in the Fugue on another Forgotten Realms server for about 4 months ;).

[SkillFocuspwn]

A Thayan Enclave faction would've been limiting, PC-centred and imbalanced. Unless you're suggesting NPCs take the power away from the PCs, the PCs will eventually die and I have no doubts that players would complain about how various PCs have been openly handed a DM faction.

[DeputyCool]

@Drakkil:

The Syndicate was given -numerous- opportunities to more deeply envelope themselves in the plot, or work against it, or do pretty much anything. The Faction seemed to unanimously decide they would rather do nothing at all.

[BrittanyPanthas]

Most of the events surrounding the formation of the Conclave had a lot of player effort involved in them.  Calling it a DM sandbox and a railroad effort to form this faction just.....cheapens the hard work of many PCs who put a lot into this.

[Dash]

As the leader of the Thayan Enclave I suppose I'll chime in here.

Thomas, I think you mean well, which is sweet. Your concern for the players of the previous wizard faction is adorable, but as others have said, you should have spoken to some of us before assuming to know our feelings.

The Thayan Enclave, at least the way I intended it when I created it, was never meant to become a DM faction. I am very happy with the way it has turned out, and it continues to thrive as we pursue our goals.

Furthermore, the Conclave was something we worked IC towards achieving. Truth be told, behind the scenes it was in the works way before SFP and I first sat down for a chat and said, "Yo, let's try to unite the prominent wizards into a Mages Guild." But the end establishment of the Conclave was something we were working towards.

As for your problem with powerful NPCs, yes, there are alot of OP NPCs, but think about how hard it would be for DMs to tell a continuous story if NPCs had the same life span as PCs? If it was so easy to just kill a prominent NPC whenever two guys with an axe between them decided to, the gameworld would be absolute chaos. How would any semblance of plot continue? Of course I don't think they should be unkillable, but the fact that they make you think they are- that is what the leader of a super strong merc faction, or powerful wizard faction SHOULD be.