Review: Disabled Parties

[Crod Mondoon]

80 votes..beginning to think this pole is loosing it's validity.

-Just to add. I have talked to maybe 4 new players, not new handles but folks brand new, and they loved the system, and saw it as a draw.  Sad to say, but simple marketing folks- switch the Server name to Archepeligo:Escape From the Underdark or whatever, but keep the first word A- as stated earlier.  First name on the list, as in google searches, or the most convient store, ala 7-elevn, gets the traffic. No diffrence here, we are competeing for a realitvely static number of folks. Peeps will check out the top 1 or 2, and if they like what they find, thats it.  We should try and make EFUA or..AEFU :) that first or second stop.

[ScottyB]

We have over 20-something DMs who still pop up from time to time, so DMs could be just one fourth of this poll. I'm not sure what the current numbers are, but there were something like hundreds of unique players who have logged on to EFU/A within a given month.

I mean, you've seen IRC, right? The numbers are down to about 30-40, but I remember when we could have as many as 70 people in #EFU. And not everyone who's active was necessarily on IRC!

Edit: 45 people in IRC right now, not including bots.

[Gippy]

The poll's numbers are legit. EFU's got a lot of players.

[Caddies]

Throughout this thread there have been recurrent claims about how this system was designed for the 'mechanical elite' and how it disadvantages others who don't fall into that category. Can someone clearly explain the correlation?

[DeputyCool]

Twice I have seen people mention that we should change the name of the server so that it starts with A. This is undesireable for a couple of reasons.

1) Anyone who has been gone since before EFUA began might not find us again, as they'd be looking for EFU not A:EFU.
2) Who honestly looks at that in Alphabetical order? Sort by players is the most common, and that's not anything we can control with a name change.

[Jayde Moon]

TL:DR WARNING

I want to quickly state that I didn't say that it was designed for the mechanically elite.

Keep in mind that devices like maps with party locations and the ability to note the health level of your companions and click on their portraits to effect them with beneficial effects can be considered 'crutches' for those who are not as mechanically inclined.  While removing them doesn't directly advantage or disadvantage a particular group, it does effectively remove the handicap (if you will) of some people who just don't have the twitch skills that others might.  This effectively widens the gap between the elitish and the njubish (it's like we're trying to rub out the middle class!).

As you ask for them, I can give a few examples (these are just SOME, I'm sure others can relate more):

Example One:  "I have slow load times"  This is an example of a hardware issue that some people just don't have.  However, it's an issue I (for one) am plagued with.  I also know a few others who have this issue and sometimes we do the e-penis thing in reverse (my comp is crappier than yours).

What happens here is that I head out with a group in a direction.  We transition.  Once I appear, the rest of the group can be as much as half the area ahead of me, though usually it's about a screen away (sometimes I'm with other folks with slow machines and we transition at an equal pace).  Over two or three transitions, I can end up pretty far back, or even losing my group.

For ME, this isn't a huge stumbling block because I generally have a pretty good idea of where my group is going and have a great sense of direction.  I know some people can't make heads or tails of where they are going (for some reason that is beyond me to fathom) and I imagine this can be pretty infuriating for them.

And extension of this is slow framerates.  My particular issue is a weak graphics card and RAM.  So when a lot is going on on the screen, my framerate can be pretty abysmal and it causes lag on my end, which has nothing to do with actual internet latency.  Great example of this fucking with me was when I hit shift and clicked one of my hotkeys with the mouse to lay a magic weapon on Stefan Baden (Winston Martin), but even as I was holding the shift key down, it didn't register properly so I clicked the non-shift hotkey which was dispel magic.  Lulz all around.

Being able to click on portraits, which are large, easy to aim at, and static helps me to not heal enemies or the non-injured guy fighting next to the near death guy, or more realistically, waste precious seconds trying to aim just right so I DON'T make that mistake.

Example Two: "I can't keep up with everyone while contributing to the conversation/emote fest"  Some of us are homekey typers who never have to drop our head down to the keyboard to see what we're typing, but some people, believe it or not, pretty much have to drop their eyes to the keyboard for each and every key stroke.  I've watched people get into typing something, watched their group walk away, then the guy says something and suddenly realizes everyone has gone.  Of my three examples, this probably affects the least amount of people.

Example Three: "When things heat up, I get overwhelmed"  Kind of parallel to example two, there are some who have a real hard time keeping up with things when the pace gets going.  A lot of these are the non-gamers who play NWN.  NWN offers something many other RPGs and computer games don't... an actual IMMERSIVE escape into fantasy RP.  So you end up with people who would never play computer games otherwise playing with us here.

These folks don't have the twitch skills the rest of us do, have a hard time aiming their mouse just so, clicking on hotkeys quickly, remembering keystroke combinations or scads of voicechat commands.  When the fight is happening, they don't have the presence of mind to start hovering their mouse over their comrades to see if someone might be at injured or near death.  They don't notice when their buddy drops to the ground next to them, bleeding.  It may seem quite idiotic to those of us who have been playing computer games since Pong, but it happens.

Just today I was in a Q and the two guys with me, after killing the dudes they were fighting, with characters facing in such a way that I was about a screen away in their forward arc of vision (yes, they were actually facing me), did not notice that I was getting my ass handed to me and was basically downing potions to try to stay ahead of the damage being dealt.  Even though the PCs seemed to be looking RIGHT AT ME, they didn't do anything about it.  I yelled "HELP!" on the talk channel, but apparently they were outside of talk range because they still didn't react.  I had to send a tell to one of them "HELP, DAMMIT!" before they came running over.  These two players were pretty decent, too.

Now, there are answers for these, but I warn you it's easy to flippantly spout out what seems to be simple fixes for those who don't have these issues while having no appreciation for how frustrating it might be for those who do.

Get a better computer, learn to type, be better at the game are pretty unreasonable.  Get folks to pay more attention to what's going on with you so they don't leave you behind or take into account your deficiencies relies on others to adjust to your issues.  Shut up and deal isn't very nice either.

Like I said, I personally like the new system.  I see the potential for great RP instances.  I have crashed a quest (legitimately and in a manner the players involved thought was great) and I can see that forcing people to slow down because they can't rely on the crutch of a mini-map to lead them could lead to better RP.

But the mini-map and party bar are crutches that are meant to compensate for deficiencies in the engine that come from a 90 degree arc of vision at a third person perspective.  It compensates for the fact that even though you may be facing away from someone you still perceive them (perhaps you hear the reassuring clanking of their armor) and the only way the game engine really has to represent perception is by visually representing them on your screen or mini-map

It takes into account that while Joe may have the gaming reflexes of an elephant playing on a lap top, his PC is Willy Badass, seasoned adventure who has a strong awareness of the battlefield around him, from being able to see among his allies who is more effectively cutting down the enemy to noting when his buddy beheads an orc to being able to quickly note which friend is hard pressed and requires succor.

So while repairing the immersion of not knowing the health of your buddy two areas away, it can break down the immersion of being a seasoned adventurer who knows what's going on around him (especially for those who aren't as mechanically inclined).

That this tool can be cheesed and used as a metagaming device is an unfortunate side effect, but I don't think that it's a game breaker.

Removing the tool removes the metagaming aspects, which is especially hot for PvPers who really hate when they gank someone and suddenly, 5 of their pals come running from two areas over to lend aid.  Removing the tool creates additional challenges for those who have near mastered the mechanics of the engine and are looking for ways to play that refresh the experience for them, by finding mechanical challenges whether in the form of making successful gimped builds, optimizing respected builds, and utilizing their knowledge of the server to great effect.

However, removing the tool can provide frustration for people who just want to play a fun game, immerse into another character without stressing about being a super elite champion, and provide a strong backbone of supporting cast for all the hot shot, glamour PCs.

For those who don't experience this frustration, it's REALLY hard to appreciate that others do.

[Jasede]

The lack of OOC community is to me one of the systems biggest boons.

This just makes me feel bad. I liked having a community. I liked knowing certain players. If they wanted me to not know, they'd use a secret account. I liked all these things.

Taking the OOC community, or even just decreasing it - I don't know. I don't know. Hard to feel "at home" anymore.

What does Howland think? I want to know what Howland thinks.

[Caddies]

What happens here is that I head out with a group in a direction. We transition. Once I appear, the rest of the group can be as much as half the area ahead of me, though usually it's about a screen away (sometimes I'm with other folks with slow machines and we transition at an equal pace). Over two or three transitions, I can end up pretty far back, or even losing my group.

Why don't you run to catch up if they are a screen away? And that's only a problem assuming nobody waits...very few people I have met on the server are that discourteous. IMO, a non-issue with regards to the new party system.

As for people not being good at NWN, why not consider the change as a feature that might help them become good? People do not exist in a state of flux; they learn and adapt. And sometimes the best way to learn is baptism by fire. In order to heal someone people are going to need to be slightly more aware of the situation or slightly more accurate with the mouse. In time, people's NWN skills will improve because of this change. Hardly a reason to take out what IMO is one of the best implementations for the server to date.

And what is this about OOC community? How is that relevant? I do not understand, honestly. Parties had nothing to do with knowing or not knowing someone OOCly, they were merely a feature of the NWN game engine. How does its removal make you feel 'not at home'?

[Jasede]

You wouldn't understand.

[ScottyB]

I've decided to hold off on personally commenting on the system until I can find the time to actually try it, but I want to mention that I'm one of those easily-lost, mechanically-hopeless-after-4-years, gossiping (Team Law!) players. Or was, anyways. And I don't want to be "baptised by fire" in order to play a game.

So far I feel that Jayde is like a young me, and I trust that he's been playing in the new system (unlike me). My memory isn't what it used to be, so if I'm wrong, correct me.

(Obligatory reference: "Yeoung Mi was a hack compared to this guy!")

(I have no idea if I'm older than Jayde, either.)

[Jayde Moon]

As for people not being good at NWN, why not consider the change as a feature that might help them become good? People do not exist in a state of flux; they learn and adapt. And sometimes the best way to learn is baptism by fire. In order to heal someone people are going to need to be slightly more aware of the situation or slightly more accurate with the mouse. In time, people's NWN skills will improve because of this change.

ie: Well, why don't you just get better at the game, you non good at the game people!  Such an easy fix!  Sounds so simple.

And maybe that's what will happen.  Or maybe it will be a learning curve that pushes people away from the community.  Some of these people don't really have an interest in having to get better.  Having to master twitch skills isn't appealing to everybody.  It's hard to imagine, but there it is!

Theoretically, there are answers and justifications and fixes for all the issues brought up.

And Jasede, I hear you!  It's another aspect of NWN and EfU:A as a social function.

[TheImpossibleDream]

People who are new to this type of server won't even know the difference in the learning curve.

People who are new to nwn will not know the difference between this server and one with parties.

If a player is driven away by something as mundane as not being able to join a party its doubtful they would have been able to cope with the harsh environment regardless.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

This should of been a poll in where we cannot see the numbers :(

[Ommadawn]

Why? What's the point of a poll if you can't at least see the number of the vote? I for one find the results interesting, and hope the DM's can make an informed decision based on the feedback and their own observations.

[Letsplayforfun]

@Caddies: as much as i agree with you because i enjoy the new system, you have the biais of being a very good player, both in RP and engine-wise.

I'm pretty sure a 'standard' player coming along and getting fugued two or three as a 'baptem of fire' because the party mechanics are not what he is used to will simply log off permanently. Remember we are one of the few 'harsh death' server around, so baptisms of fire may put off quite a few visitors.

That being said, i personnaly like the change, but worry about loosing players. Not 'because of it', but because it may the one drop that spills the glass.