Scythes and druids

[FleetingHeart]

So, ok. As was said this ought to be discussed in the suggestion thread.

I understand the weapon is powerful. Yes. According to other people's math the scythe hits for 5.462 damage per hit on average. We all know that it's capable of nasty crits (32 max damage, before strength), however.

Compare this to the druid's other options for 2 handed weapons, the quarterstaff and spear.
Quarterstaff does, on average, 3.49 damage and the spear weighs in at a reasonable 4.702 and is also capable of some pretty nasty crits (24 max damage, before strength).

On average, the scythe isn't too far ahead of the spear. Less than one damage per swing. And both are well behind the king of damage, the Greatsword, weighing in at an average damage of 7.315 damage per swing and a maximum base crit of 24 damage and double the threat range (so more crits on average).

Now, it's been stated that Scythes are fair game for druids to use. However according to silly NWN rules, Druids are not allowed to take weapon feats. So, the only way for them, currently, to use a Scythe is to multiclass. This would generally mean taking either Fighter, Barbarian, or Ranger. All of which give them a host of other abilities (An extra feat of choice and heavy armor, rage and d12 HP, dual wield and better stealth, respectively).

Any one of these also grants the player access to Greatswords, which are useable by druids of Mielikki. So, really if you are worried about powerbuilds, that's going to be it right there. Not a Scythe user.

So, I'd propose the addition of Scythes to the Druid class to allow them to stay pure classed and pick up a neat weapon for flavor. Would it increase their potential damage? Yes. Are they going to all use one? Probably not. I know there were a lot of times while playing Oona that I much prefered to have a shield and one hander on so I wouldn't die so fast. Others are going to prefer a spear for style. I personally love spears to death, and would probably only use a scythe on a Chauntean druid, simply because it is so fitting.

What's more, a fully buffed druid will always do less damage than a fully buffed fighter or barbarian. They have a lower BAB and fewer stat points to dedicate towards strength (since they need a decent wisdom score), and in the case of fighters, fewer feats to work with for things like power attack, and no weapon specialization.

One last thing I've just thought of... If the weapon feat requirements for Scythes was changed to allow druids to use them, this would still not allow them to pick a weapon focus in Scythes, since Weapon Focus is linked to the feats the character has. Therefore bringing down the potential average damage compared to a druid built for fighting with a spear.

[FleetingHeart]

On the same note, Trident's truly deserve the same treatment. I never understood why they were recently made Martial Weapons by Bioware and thus ripped unceremoniously from the grasps of druids.

I think this happened in what... 1.68? Was odd, to say the least. And to my mind, a trident is a very fitting weapon for a druid of an oceanic deity.

Edit: Guess it happened in 1.69. I remember crying when I had to give up my undead smashing, holy damage dealing trident on Oona :-(

[Blake the Boar]

Just take the feat like everybody else.

[FleetingHeart]

Cannot take the feat, as explained, without cross classing.

[Blake the Boar]

Ah, in that case, I agree the feat should be available. Not free though.

[ExileStrife]

This doesn't really address, but there's a pet peeve I have when people start talking about weapon balance that I think is worth pointing out.

Simple mathematical analysis breaks down when you are trying to evaluate weapon strength because "average damage per second" and "base-strength critical damage" are not the full story.  4x critical on an otherwise not-superb average-dps weapon are better than they might seem because of the very bursty damage they deliver.  A sudden 70 damage out-of-the-blue tends to catch people off guard (if it doesn't kill them outright), compared to a slow and steady 9 damage + occassional double damage spread over a long period of rounds.  The bursty damage is very difficult to deal with, which makes it particularily good in PvP.

That's all I wanted to say.

[FleetingHeart]

And I agree with you whole heartedly, Strife. But x3 and even twice as many x2 crits on a weapon with higher base damage can be equally frightening. That Greatsword is, to me, almost more frightening because it has a greater chance of delivering those crits. And therefore a greater chance of hitting off a double crit :-\

Ultimately this suggestion is not about trying to gain easy access to a powerful weapon. It is about gaining access to a weapon that makes sense to a class, but which that class must leap through NWN hoops to obtain. I think it's silly that a pure druid cannot use a Scythe or even a Trident, when these are very much druidic type of weapons. A Trident, after all, is little different from a spear. And Scythes are the favored weapon of perhaps the most well known and widely worshiped druidic deity.

[ScottyB]

What about making a feat available to druids that works as an "Expanded Druid Weapon Proficiency"?

It could add:

• Kama
• Trident
• Scythe

I threw kamas on there since it makes the feat seem a little more attractive, and it's a farming implement.

Taking the feat would require an override, but it would be very easy to set up.

[Kotenku]

Will doing so also fix the Custom PrCs? If so, I am all for it.

[ScottyB]

No, but this would be so ridiculously easy.

I'm not even completely sure what is wrong with the custom PrCs yet, since I haven't seen any bug reports on the matter and I don't feel like going over every last file with no objective.

[Pup]

Cannot take the feat, as explained, without cross classing.

How exactly do you figure?  Maybe not at first lvl, but you can certainly build your druid to use exotic weapons.  Any class can.

[Blake the Boar]

What about making a feat available to druids that works as an "Expanded Druid Weapon Proficiency"?

It could add:

• Kama
• Trident
• Scythe

I threw kamas on there since it makes the feat seem a little more attractive, and it's a farming implement.

Taking the feat would require an override, but it would be very easy to set up.

This is very nice!

[TheWastesAreFrozen]

Yeah, you can take the feat at level 3, 6, 9 ...ect

[FleetingHeart]

How exactly do you figure?  Maybe not at first lvl, but you can certainly build your druid to use exotic weapons.  Any class can.

No. You can't. Druids are strictly banned by the engine from taking other weapon feats. Exotic Weapons simply are not an option as a feat to take. At any level. Only when taking a different class. So the druid would have to take a level as anything else at 3,6,9, or a level of fighter basically whenever (free feat).

[FleetingHeart]

What about making a feat available to druids that works as an "Expanded Druid Weapon Proficiency"?

It could add:

• Kama
• Trident
• Scythe

I threw kamas on there since it makes the feat seem a little more attractive, and it's a farming implement.

Taking the feat would require an override, but it would be very easy to set up.

This would be awesome. Especially if it allowed weapon focus too, since my solution did not.