Evocation - Levelling the field

[FleetingHeart]

Just a few observations I've made recently.

• Ghostly visage effectively blocks all level 1 spells. This is fair and just.
• Magic Missiles is a long range damage spell that, while it does good damage (10.5 average at level 5, 17.5 at 9), is easily countered by Ghostly Visage. This is fair and just.
• Ice Dagger is a short range damage spell that does good damage (12.5 average at 5, capped), is easily countered by Ghostly Visage, can be saved against for half damage, and also can be blocked by Elemental Resistance spells. This does not seem fair and just.

It seems to me that Ice Dagger is at a severe disadvantage to Magic Missile. In the interest of fairness and diversity in spell casting, I would propose that Ice Dagger be given a long range, and remove or increase the level cap.

For instance, a level 9 ice dagger might do an average damage of 22.5 to a single target, but can also be saved against for half damage, and blocked by Ghostly visage, and also be blocked by Elemental Resistance.

It would therefore be capable of doing comparable damage (22.5 average, 16.8 assuming 75% resist rate) to a magic missile at the same range, but also have more counters. Rather than having more counters, doing less damage on average (when you consider saves), and putting the caster at greater risk by being closer to the fight.

Furthermore, there is a definite lack of a good ranged attack at the second circle. Yes, melf's acid arrow is amazing, however this is unaccessible to an evoker... someone who focuses on blowing things up.

Since we can't add spells easily (though I understand it is technically possible in NWNX), I would suggest that the two ranged offensive evocation spells at this level, be given a range buff. Therefore Cloud of Bewilderment (no damage) would be given a long range, and Gedlee's Loop (moderate damage) would be given a medium range.

Yes, these spells are powerful, but it must also be remembered that they effect party members as well. With Cloud of Bewilderment being a Poison save, there is no good way to protect your own party from it's effects (mind immunity blocks the stun, not the blindness). Gedlee's Loop can be mitigated with Elemental Protection, but the stun is still there that will effect party members and, to my knowledge, cannot be blocked, only saved against.

Therefore, since both can be detrimental to the party (potentially causing more harm than good), I believe that their ranges should be increased so that they can act more as buffers against oncoming mobs or archers.

Third Circle - Fireball and Scintillating Sphere are essentially identical. The only difference should be flavor. However, Scintillating Sphere has a reduced range for no good reason. It does the same damage as a fireball and offers no other perks. I say it needs increasing, or else some other bonus. But really, just the increased range would suffice.

That's about all for now.

[Drakill Tannan]

As you can tell, i am, as always biassed in favour of wizards and sorcerers, howver think i can still add some constructive critisism.

Firstly, for ice dagger, seeing the damage can be bloqued or at least greatly reduced by a level 1 spell, i'd say it should be considerably stronger than magic missile, yet magic missile always does 5 more damage. I agree with Heart to remove the cap. But also increse the range the point is to severly harm and posibly kill the enemy before your fighters are harmed, with such a low range either you get harmed or the fighters do.

As for level 2, remember we have comburst. It is a very strong spell, the only singe-targer offensive spell worth using in EFU:A IMO. I'd like variety though, have geedle's do a similar damage (2d6+1 per caster level) and give it some range, it won't do too much damage against a single target because there will be no subsequent damage, but it has the chance of dealing it to several enemies. In order for this to work though, the enemies must not be close to your party members so a long casting range would be needed, if the AoE would be slightly increses too, it would help.

Cloud of bewilderment is too risky to use IMO. And besides sometimes enemies don't even make a saving throw. Increse the range.

As for fireball and the electric fireball, they should be the same with diferent elemental damage, i agree, just adjust therange.


I'd also like the server to have some variety in spells, for example, ice dagger will be more used if the change is implemented, but you could make horizakul's boom be the similar so mages would chose between one or another and some would use one, some the other.

[FleetingHeart]

Horzikul's boom is already a pretty potent spell against another caster. Deafness causes spell failure.

[Drakill Tannan]

Yes, however the saving throw is Will. Most spellcsters will be able to resist it with ease.

I admit i hadn't think of it PvPwise though, in a quest a chane to silence a spellcaster does nothing really, on a player...

you have a point, i take back the suggestion of horizakul's boom

[Egon the Monkey]

As for level 2, remember we have comburst. It is a very strong spell, the only singe-targer offensive spell worth using in EFU:A IMO.

Try Acid Arrow some time. Medium range 3d6 dmg on hit, 1-3 rounds of unsaveable 1d6 dmg. Less initial damage, yes, but the range and total lack of save makes up for it. It is Conjuration though so an Evoker can't use it. That's the price you pay for speccing.

Cloud is fine, you just need to aim it. And the *point* of a save is that sometimes things make it. It might be better with Medium range, possibly but Long range on that would be rediculous. It would make it better than Gust of Wind! I've always found Short range fine if you treat it as a "landmine" or "artillery". The best use of it is to drop it in front of an advance. Then, some get stunned, some dont, but your party faces fewer at a time, as some are stuck in the Cloud. It also kicks the ass of mages in a duel. Oh, and, get your party to use Ironguts to up their fort saves vs it.

The point of Gedlee's isn't damage. It's got 1-5d6 dmg, reflex for half but it also applies a 1 round stun if the targets fail a will save. It's not a great spell TBH but the wands of it are handy if aimed right against low Reflex/Will targets. Mid range, sure, it would help to aim it into the back of a group.

Scint Sphere really should be buffed to the same range as Fireball. They are identical, and with Wild Orc Fire Immunity, it's nice to have something that works.

The most important trick with offensive spells though is a simple one. The stuff you can't protect against easily is GOLD, because the enemy can't either. However, it all comes down to the one key skill in offensive casting. Learn To Aim.

[FleetingHeart]

Try Acid Arrow some time. Medium range 3d6 dmg on hit, 1-3 rounds of unsaveable 1d6 dmg. Less initial damage, yes, but the range and total lack of save makes up for it. It is Conjuration though so an Evoker can't use it. That's the price you pay for speccing..

Which is, as stated, rather silly considering an Evoker is meant to be blowing things up. Don't you agree?

The main problem I find with Cloud of Bewilderment, however, is that in order to aim it well (you admitted yourself it's too risky to use) requires you to go out in front of your front line in order to aim it without hitting your own party. Thus potentially drawing in more monsters than would have even aggroed in the first place, putting you in grave danger, and putting your party in worse danger than if you had simply stood still.

If the range is not increased, then party members should at the very least be made immune to it, as is suggested in the spell's description.

Also, I know the point of Gedlee's isn't damage. Once again, it's an issue of causing your party more damage than you're preventing. It has a short range and short AoE. It also has the nasty habit of stunning your front line, as well as some, but potentially not all of the monsters attacking them. Meaning they are taking more damage (no dodge bonus, flat footed) for a round, and could potentially miss drinking a life saving potion. There is no such thing as aiming this one right without putting yourself in a oneshotdead situation. It's range is too limited to not effect your own party.

With a longer range, it could be used to stop an advance, or disable archers or casters temporarily. It simply changes it's tactical use. Right now it is a risky crap shoot.

[Drakill Tannan]

Acid arrow is fine, as is comburst. Let's not discuss something that doesn't need a fix. Unless any of you disagree.

Gedlee's does need a change. It's not practical to use in party because either you need to be at the fronline so it does't affect your allies, in wich case the fragile wizard is greatly endangered and since the enemies are not to close to each other, chances are you'll hit one or two if you are lucky, or you risk of putting in serious risk your own allies.

I actually once killed a party member using it, i casted it while the enemies were about to hit him and it bounced to him. He got something like 9 damage, was stunned and while stunned got hit twice, so he died.

If the range is incresed you can use it on the enemies before they get to your allies. But unless the AoE is incresed you'll hit one or two, and therefore acid arrow is simply better.

My suggestion is to retain the low range but increse the AoE, and make it similar to chain lightning: it bounces on 1 enemy per two caster levels after it strikes the first enemy.

[sobe-real]

I've been noticing so many of these suggestions are about spellcasters and various suggested imbalances in PvP.


I really see no issue here, there is one spell in particular that counters all buffs and is readily accessible.


Not being prepared with the right spells is the Wizard's fault, not the game's. Blaming your being unprepared because this or any spell wouldn't be as useful on a quest you're going on is not only a bad excuse, in my opinion, but metagaming.


I'm not accusing anyone, but myself, and others i'm sure, have seen similar trends.

[FleetingHeart]

Sobe: I'm speaking in pure generalities here. Magic Missle/Ice Dagger is a simple argument. They are both damage spells, they are both equal level. They should both do similar damage. Especially since the one that currently does less damage by default, also has more counters. Variety is good. This would provide some.

As for Cloud and Gedlees, I just feel that they are not very useful in their current forms. Are they powerful? Yes. But they are just as likely to kill you as to turn the tide. In fact, I'd almost say they are more likely to harm you and your party than to help. Not talking about PvP. Hell, hold person, haste, Magic Missle spam will kill most unprepared characters. Invis/PhK too. If your only concern is making these spells too powerful for PvP, I doubt you have very much to worry about. I rarely ever see them used.

Making them better would just mean more variety. Variety is good. I like variety. Bad enough we are limited to so few spells when DnD has such a rich spell selection. Even worse that we use so few of those that we are limited to in order to maximize our effectiveness. Would a little variety really break PvP that badly?

I think not.

[Broken Crockery]

Cloud is quite good, but most of the affects can be mitigated by good saves/gear, so I do not see a problem with its limited range.

Gedlee's indeed should get a range increase. Simply compare it against Sound Burst and the ways in which it is lacking are numerous indeed!

Scint Sphere really should have the range of a fireball.

[lovethesuit]

I'm sorry, since you're just moving past one of my favourite spells I feel like I need to intervene. It's important to study the progression of an early spell as much as its effect from a higher level mage, to understand exactly why it exists the way it does.

So, in this post I'll be discussing Ice Dagger.

According to NWNWiki, Ice Dagger deals 1d4 damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5. As we all know, Magic Missile deals 1d4+1 damage every two caster levels after the first, to a maximum of 5d4+5 in total damage. This may seem uneven at first, with Ice Dagger dealing 20 damage and Magic Missile dealing 25, typically irresistible as Magic-type damage. However, there are two things your conclusion has overlooked:

Firstly, the elemental damage should not be seen as a weakness, but a bonus. Consider that some creatures have a vulnerability to Cold, in which case this spell does additional damage. You'll see this use of elemental spells quite often throughout the early spells, such as Fireball and Scintillating Sphere. The former has a higher range than the latter, but S.S. offers an Electricity-based alternative to the Fireball that is very useful. My own Evoker often prepared Lightning Bolts and Scintillating Spheres when she intended to explore underwater, knowing that water conducts electricity (this is included in a custom script on EfU:A as a damage vulnerability to Electrical damage while underwater).

Secondly, as I mentioned earlier, you must pay attention to the spell progression as well. Do not consider a level 9 mage casting Magic Missile and Ice Dagger; the comparison cannot stand favourably for the Ice Dagger. As I wrote in-character in the DSM-II article The Manipulation of Kinetic Energy For Its Anti-Hostility Properties, "As a wizard becomes more powerful, the magic missile will become more effective in a direct and measurable way. In the school of Invocation, it is said that a wizard is only as powerful as their magic missile spell."

My point in this instance is that at a lower level, wizards and sorcerers have fewer spell options. Starting at caster level 2 until caster level 7, ice dagger actually does more damage on average than the Magic Missile. A level 2 wizard will deal 2d4 damage with the ice dagger, and only 1d4+1 with a magic missile. A level 5 character deals 5d4 damage with ice dagger, but only 3d4+3 with magic missile. For low level characters, which this server has plenty of, the ice dagger is clearly the superior choice.

I would also like to discuss the range. In my experience, Short (8m) range spells are dangerous for a fragile mage to get off, but not impossible. You need to familiarize yourself with spell ranges, to get a feel of where you can position yourself on a battlefield to do the most good while taking the least risk. It may seem easier to snipe with magic missiles from their longest range, but there are three problems with this: First, you often don't see new enemies until they are already upon your lines; Second, at such a distance it can be difficult to manuever the camera during a highly populated melee to safely target specific enemies; Third, and most important, sniping from a distance typically leaves a mage vulnerable, as there are many enemies that are scripted to attack from stealth and wizards can only cross-class the Spot and Listen skills.

[Egon the Monkey]

My own Evoker often prepared Lightning Bolts and Scintillating Spheres when she intended to explore underwater, knowing that electricity damage vulnerability is applied to all creatures when underwater.

I thought underwater applied 100% spellfail too though?

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

50% I think

[lovethesuit]

50% I think

Less, if you don't breathe.

Next, I would like to address your comments regarding Cloud of Bewilderment and Gedlee's Electric Loop. Your primary issue seems to again be with range, considering that both these spells are Short (8m). I think perhaps you're being preoccupied with range; if the range is short, then simply get closer.

Cloud of Bewilderment is an excellent example of something I touched on earlier, when I said that it's important to familiarize yourself with spell ranges. In truth, each spell is unique despite there being only a few set ranges. Cloud of Bewilderment, however, is an area-of-effect (AoE) spell, and very dangerous to rogues, mages, and bards in particular because it affects the Fortitude save. Being a cloud, its range points to the furthest point at which you can create the center of the effect. This can be dangerous to a novice Evoker, but with good practice you can virtually close off an entire part of the battlefield.

This leads into my second point on CoB, which is its actual effect. I believe you must be comparing it to the Stinking Cloud, which is a third circle Conjuration with a very similar effect. However, the effect is not the same at all. Stinking Cloud creates a Daze effect, which, although it effects the Fortitude save in this spell, is in fact a mind-affecting spell. This means that in the case of creatures immune to mind-affecting spells (such as many vermin), Stinking Cloud is useless. Furthermore, when Dazed you may still move (at a reduced speed), and even drink potions. I believe in this case, a potion of Clarity sound defeats the entire thing.

Cloud of Bewilderment, despite being one circle lower as a spell, is greatly superior. A stun completely stops a character in their tracks, preventing them from moving at all, or even drinking potions. Furthermore, according to its relevant NWNWiki entry, "Targets that are immune to mind-affecting spells can still be blinded by the cloud, though they will not be stunned." What this means is that all creatures that do not specifically have the very rare Immunity: Blindness or Immunity: Poison effects will be influenced by this spell.

Next, Gedlee's Electric Loop. In this part, I will address your concern of a lack of ranged attack spells available to a specialized Evoker. There are three spells I would like to suggest first as exceptions to your point, which is quite true as you've stated it; with the exception of Melf's Acid Arrow, there's no spell that deals damage at a range higher than Short in the second circle.

Blindness/Deafness is a fortitude-affecting spell that handily disrupts casters and warriors alike. Its range is and its type is Enchantment, making it available to all save Illusionists (which really have no right to complain ever). Lesser Dispel is an abjuration, and available to all mages (along with Necromancy and Evocation spells). It is infinitely useful at all levels, especially against NPC casters and bosses that like to buff up. Finally, Darkness is a tried-and-true Evocation spell that can be used both offensively and defensively; casting from Darkness is a great way to be protected, and combining it with Ultravision increases AB and makes enemies flatfooted for sneak attacks.

Again, to your point on range: although Gedlee's is a short-range spell, it is also an AoE. Mind you, the area is quite small, and it can affect allies as well as enemies. The Rat Arcanist uses this spell in its arsenal, which can be dangerous for your side of the battle unless you position it correctly. However, consider what other spells the Rat Arcanist uses: blur, negative energy ray, and electric jolt. What we see from its preferred spell-list is an example of using multiple spell circles to their best effect.

First circle spells carry many important, basic buffs like Mage Armour, PvE/PvG, Magic Weapon, and Shield. It also carries staple attack spells like Neg. Energy Ray, Magic Missile, Color Spray, and yes, even Ice Dagger. The second circle seems to lack these attack spells outside the Acid Arrow, but it heavily increases the number of buff spells. Blur exists here, along with Invis/See Invis, the 6 Transmutations, and the ever-useful Flame Weapon. Its close-range spells are also top notch. The second circle spell carries perhaps the most popular touch-range spell, being Combust.

My point here is that just because you've attained the second circle, does not mean that the first is obsolete. Early spells increase rapidly to keep the wizard effective until third and fourth level spells become available, and even then they still have their uses. Many people swear by Cantrip wands, being a cheap and effective way to stay in the battle. If you are still concerned about a lack of effective damage from your level 3-4 wizard, I return to my earlier point: a wizard is only as powerful as their magic missile spell.

You get a free Wizard feat at level 5; consider Silent Spell or Empower Spell, to include more Magic Missiles in your arsenal.

[Anonymous Bosch]

To retort to Scotty's cunning defence of ice dagger...
 
While ice dagger's average damage does exceed magic missile's within a certain lvl range, it's main comparative weakness is the reflex save.
 
Enemies can save to take half, or even zero, damage.
With this in mind, ice dagger is only more effective assuming enemies with little chance of making the save.
 
Compare with burning hands, however, and you have the same reflex save, the same dmg progression and the same issue of elemental strength/weakness.
So what makes burning hands a viable alternative to magic missile?
 
Area of Effect!
This is a big plus that, in many situations, more than compensates for the reflex save.
 
There is a trade off with using burning hands over mm.
All ice dagger brings to the table is elemental damage, making it vastly inferior to both spells except in the hypothetical battle against clumsy fire monsters.
 
Wouldn't it be reasonable to make the spell comparable to either magic missile or burning hands?
 
Imo, either removing the save or altering the spell to include an aoe would bring the spell to the point where it is worth the memorising.
 
Or add more clumsy fire monsters to the mod!