Deathward Redux

[Professor Death]

Carried over from the Suggestions Forum, a discussion about deathward availability ensued but closed before I could add the following:

Semli mentioned a certain quest most folks don't know of in which the spell would be useful.  Well, Two others and myself (2 level 7s and a 5) found it for the first time and headed in.  All were wiped out in one shot - all had full HP, two of us with over 90.  A DM took pity on us and moved the major beastie away from our corpses so we could get out.  He noted that we should have seen "warning signs" like Mort noted.  All three of looked more carefully on the way out with our collective tails between our legs and STILL none of us noticed anything that said deathward was a good idea.  We only saw one possible hint, and all of us interpreted it MUCH differently given the hint's position, the "furniture" in the room, and the existing spawns in the room.

Case in point, to NOT metagame that quest is a deathtrap unless you HAPPEN to carry deathwards around - and since it's a quest for levels through 7, not many will have ready access to that spell, especially when the boss's attack takes out the entire party in one swoop.  That's one I will readily be metagaming in the future - to NEVER take it again, much like Clowns in Sanctuary was for so many people.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

...What's the point of playing if there isn't risk involved?

Is this game a mindless quest grind to you people? It's about challenge and accomplishment, not "let's get supplies for PvP."

[BrittanyPanthas]

I'm rather certain I know what the hint is given that it is pretty much spelled out near the start of the quest, but I'd rather not spoil it.  Regardless, it is there.

However, I offer you an alternative solution.  Save vs. Death items exist, in fact, they exist in pretty good quantities in other quests, especially in the level range that this quest is in.

If you're so concerned about instant death, then wouldn't a character carrying around a few items that would protect them be a pretty good idea?

In Old EfU, I actually carried around a Save vs. Fear set and Save vs. Death set of equipment on my Low Will Save characters, given that Save vs. Fear and Death were far more readily available in manageable weights than Mind Affecting, Will Save, or Universal Saves.

[Garem]

IMO, deathward should be easier to get ahold of. So, yea. That's about all I've got.

[Drakill Tannan]

Risk adds to the fun.
As long as you know what the risk is.

[Egon the Monkey]

Yeah, that. Since it's not spelled out OUTSIDE the quest, you can't know in advance you face deathspells, as you have to "forget" about inside. Put some clues outside and we have a means to be forewarned and look for a deathward item or a cleric. Also, considering the DC on that deathspell, you need a LOT of save gear and buffs to be safe on most PCs.

[DeltaBravoRomeo]

...What's the point of playing if there isn't risk involved?

Is this game a mindless quest grind to you people? It's about challenge and accomplishment, not "let's get supplies for PvP."

Yes.

[Professor Death]

...What's the point of playing if there isn't risk involved?

Is this game a mindless quest grind to you people? It's about challenge and accomplishment, not "let's get supplies for PvP."

In my defense, and the insinuation that I'm a "grind for PvP items" kinda guy, I dare folks who know me to tally how many times I've been involved in PvP and actually INITIATED it - in three years, I think I can count, seriously, on one hand the number of PvP events in which I've been involved with all of my characters put together.  Consequently, the number of characters in my total "stable" for three years of play is less than 20 - half dropped due to mechanical build problems or a "vision" for the PC that wasn't going anywhere.  My serious stable from both the underdark and EFUA is less than 10.

Do I enjoy challenge?  Sure.  Do I like risk?  Yes, to a point.  My philosophy from the olden days of DMing PnP was to make the players feel as if there was risk, but mitigate it except in those situations where they truly acted stupidly.  Did characters die in my campaign setting?  Yes, to be sure.  But what fun is it to roll up a new character every week because "the dice just fell the wrong way"?  That's why as DM I always rolled behind a screen.  When by popular demand I began rolling in the open, the players were shocked at how fast their beloved characters (some played 3+ years) died just becuase of the roll of the dice.  I realize this server and its DM team take a different approach, and I am willing to accept that, to a point.  So I self mitigate and try to avoid PvP and DM-sponsored events (which tend to be perma-death) like nobody's business.  I'm here to play a CHARACTER through his or her life, not see a meteoric rise and fall and the start of something new the next week.

To those who poo-poo this philosophy, think about Harry Potter or any other beloved protagonist in a series.  We know he's going to make it from one week to the next, but we get a thrill from his near-death escapes anyway!  That's where I am.  And yes, there is threat of death, and I hate death and respawning.  It takes me way too long to get a character BACK to where he was when death occurs, so I DO take the threat of death seriously - 1/3 of your XP is pretty serious to me since I play so sporadically.

[ScottyB]

Save-or-die is one of the incarnations of "fake difficulty." It makes things hard not because the player has to figure out how to do something when confronted with it (skill) but because it will happen or not based on a roll of the dice. Effects with a duration (fear, hold) or a delay (poison, disease) can be dealt with by an aware party in a number of ways that at least one person should be able to handle - including "pull Enemy off of Player until he can heal," a very tactical response that anyone can try.

It seems like there is a clue intended to mitigate this save-or-die effect, but clues are a tricky thing. In most games, encountering something that is obviously a clue but has a non-obvious meaning simply results in players consulting a guide. If the very presence of a clue is not obvious, then you get people complaining about the lack of a fair warning. Some people are taking this a step further and suggesting that there's a lack of a timely warning.

In any case, I don't see anyone saying that having to discover the need for Death Ward made the quest more fun for them. Perhaps something we should take into consideration?

[Professor Death]

Save-or-die is one of the incarnations of "fake difficulty." It makes things hard not because the player has to figure out how to do something when confronted with it (skill) but because it will happen or not based on a roll of the dice. Effects with a duration (fear, hold) or a delay (poison, disease) can be dealt with by an aware party in a number of ways that at least one person should be able to handle - including "pull Enemy off of Player until he can heal," a very tactical response that anyone can try.

It seems like there is a clue intended to mitigate this save-or-die effect, but clues are a tricky thing. In most games, encountering something that is obviously a clue but has a non-obvious meaning simply results in players consulting a guide. If the very presence of a clue is not obvious, then you get people complaining about the lack of a fair warning. Some people are taking this a step further and suggesting that there's a lack of a timely warning.

In any case, I don't see anyone saying that having to discover the need for Death Ward made the quest more fun for them. Perhaps something we should take into consideration?

Nuff said, thanks Scotty.

[Requiem]

There is a difference between:

Hey this is pretty risky because I actually have to fight stuff that can kill me.

And.

This is pretty risky because I die in an....instant.

I think it's pretty pointless to compare the two. One is fun and one is quick. Second long. Premature.

[Diagnosis]

Clowns was easy if you knew what you were doing, too.

[Drakill Tannan]

Scotty has it, like cruzel.

Fun if it depends on skill.
Frustrating if it depends on luck.

Make a bodak appear at the begining of the quest that runs to lure to an ambush into the next room. That's enough clue for any player, unless he doesn't know anything about D&D and never completed the OC, but i guaratnee someone in the party will know what it means.

[ScottyB]

Perhaps a better clue than the one suggested above would be a Bodak's tooth placed outside the QA, inaccessible to PCs but visible enough to be suspicious.

[Mort]

The amount of +death saving throw item in the game is already ridiculous.

The DC for the particular quest that's bringing all these posts is  quite manageable.

If you use wisdom as your dump stat... well, pfe isn't always bulletproof.