Stealth System

[VanillaPudding]

A true, scripted stealthmode.  One that allows sneaks to focus 100% on their stealth.

NWN stealthmode is a joke which even to bioware's admission, has some sketchy and possibly flawed aspects of it's check system. It even gives bonuses when used in combat. However what about the times when fighting is the least of a sneak's concerns?

It's possible to script a toggled mode that will allow the sneak to gain a significant boost to stealth at the exspense of combat ability, and further movement speed decrease than normal stealthmode. (Permanent AC/AB loss while toggled on, not possible to dispel or lost via rest)

Right now sneaking in many, many areas of the ziggurat is totally unviable due to stuff like light modifiers, even allowing pcs with -no detection skills- to detect even the most min-maxed stealthers. (40+ stealth scores). A mode that only operates in these areas specificly or indoors to counteract this would be greaaat.

Based on Cruzels post here, is this possible and wanted enough to implement? Due to some hidden modifiers and light sources it's nearly impossible to hide or sneak past anyone without insane ability scores in these areas.

While there should obviously be a counter, it seems far too easy to detect stealthy people at a distance. The person trying to be stealthy currently has to focus -heavily- on those skills, even using up three feats to get decent scores while the person detecting them can cross class one of two skills and often have enough spot / listen to detect them, let alone if it's a class skill making it even easier.

Outside of Cruzel's suggestion I would add in some other options.

- Gear with much more hide / move silently on it. Perhaps the most simple of ways to balance out the system.

- Allow your bluff score to be added in to your stealth ability, as if they could 'blend in' with crowds or act in a manner more fitting of the environment they're in. Body language is a large part of telling lies, so the training to act the part could viably help in remaining unnoticed.

- Greatly decrease the listen modifier in most areas outside of the more quiet ones such as lairs or tunnels. All sorts of things would easily conceal someone's footsteps, things such as rain, wind, people talking, a magical sending in your head, the water crashing on the shores, and more!

[Relinquish]

I honestly think stealth is fine the way it is. If players can become virtually invisible with applied effort and never be able to be detected by anything, it is something overpowered.

[Vlaid]

The main problem I see with stealth on EFU, is that if you want to truly be any good at it, you really should just be a ranger.

I don't think it should be that one sided, monks and rogues should be able to stealth.

But I happen to agree....it seems very hard to track down enough stealth loot to make it effective on the server. Unless you are a ranger anyway, then your class ability+camo/one with the land more than make up for it.

[VanillaPudding]

I honestly think stealth is fine the way it is. If players can become virtually invisible with applied effort and never be able to be detected by anything, it is something overpowered.

While there should obviously be a counter, it seems far too easy to detect stealthy people at a distance. The person trying to be stealthy currently has to focus -heavily- on those skills, even using up three feats to get decent scores while the person detecting them can cross class one of two skills and often have enough spot / listen to detect them, let alone if it's a class skill making it even easier.

[Caddies]

Stealth works fine as it is IMO.

- Yes, you have to invest feats and amass stealth gear if you want to be undetectable-- this makes sense, though.

- Adding Bluff score to stealth modifiers is sort of overpowered.

- Those hidden modifiers can be used to your advantage to GAIN stealth increases.

- There have been plenty of non-ranger stealth master PCs.

- There is plenty of stealth gear about.

- Use potions.

I do like the suggestion about lowering Listen modifiers in certain busy/noisy areas though.

[Letsplayforfun]

Stealth is used as HIPS by too many people already. No need to make it better.

Most creatures don't detect a fair stealther, and if they do, it SHOULD happen sometimes. Bear in mind that some pcs put skills points to counter stealthers, so maybe you hand around those.

Stealth is just that: not invisibility+anti-noise magic. Maybe increase the bonuses in darkness/noisy places, but if so decrease them in broad daylight.

On a side not: one reason people keep stealthing around is that you can't just bash someone sneaking by your precious belongings when no DM is present. Guards should react to sneaking people OnSpot, IMO, even if just to say: "what's that suspicious attitude"?

[N/A]

Lowering the listen modifiers in certain areas is an excellent idea. At the moment, it is not the most difficult thing to hear someone, and it is not very different from spotting someone due to the character still appearing.

Stealth is used as HIPS by too many people already. No need to make it better.

What? Just what? If you are referring to corner sneaking, that is an exploit, and it is not like HIPS at all anyways.

[Random_White_Guy]

I've played stealthers and I have played against stealthers.

My biggest issue is that it cuts out RP.

I've seen entire quests were people stay in stealth. I've seen entire exploration parties of people wandering around in stealth and talking in tells to each other or to me (Back when I played one).

People don't emote it. People don't RP it.

Its just kind of like "OH HEY I CLICK A BUTTON". Its an engine limitation and one that I severely dislike.

Nature of the beast though.

I am 100% against anything to make stealth stronger.

[Sternhund]

Having played with a stealth character on EFUA, I feel that stealth is good where it is now. At about 20/20 I found my character to be impossible to spot by most.

[derfo]

i think stealth has a pretty plainly laid out hard counter in the form of spot/listen, it just seems rare anyone ever invests in it as much as people do into hide/move silently

[Egon the Monkey]

People don't emote it. People don't RP it.

Its just kind of like "OH HEY I CLICK A BUTTON". Its an engine limitation and one that I severely dislike.

How do you mean? My stealthers occasionally emote [moves with a light step and disappears" etc, but it's not something I spam.

Stealth mode is an unlimited time duration free way of hiding that lets you go about unseen by most of the server NPCs or PCs. Yes, detect skills detect it, but that's what they are *for*. Otherwise stealth is just free super-invis. Especially as stealth countering buffs last such a short time.

Maybe you can't hide at high noon on top of the ziggurat, but how are you supposed to be invisible in plain sight? (I think this is what was meant by HIPS) Stick to using it where it makes sense to be sneaky, like the wilds and dark back-alleys and you're fine. A case in point was my detect-heavy Rogue, Bishop spotting LiS's sneak rogue stealthing *in a chair at the Kingsman* and just emoting glaring at the spot every so often :D.

I would be in favour of possibly more Spot bonuses in some open areas. It's far from easy to hide in the middle of an open courtyard. Also for a sticky on how stealth works with the hidden modifiers, so people can understand where it will be good and where it will suck. I love playing sneak PCs, but I can't quite see how I can hide in front of someone's face in an open square with nothing else in sight XD.

@Afromullet:
Hearing only just reveals you as a translucent figure, you are only known to be there,not identified.

[Velve]

I think its fine, myself. I can rarely hear characters stealthing with a character with maxed out hearing, since hearing gear is almost impossible to come by (In my rather limited experience) while stealth loot is a dime in a dozen. (Never actually understood that expression, but whatever.)

[Jayde Moon]

It's not a "dime in a dozen", it's a "dime a dozen", meaning that you can get 12 for ten cents, meaning it's worth less than a penny for one, meaning it's cheap cheap cheap.[/offtopic]

I used to think stealth was fine, when I thought it was stealth + mods + 1d20 vs detect + mods + 1d20.  Now that I've learned that it's detect + mods + 1d20 vs stealth + mods and no additional + 1d20, I'm uncertain if that's the case.  It definitely makes the net worth of detect skills greater than the net worth of stealth skills.

It also removes the ability to be a 'casual stealther'.  You either need to superinflate your stealth skills or you're wasting points.  Meanwhile, putting a modest amount of points in detect skills, even 5 points, hyperincreases your chances of detecting someone, since the roll is made very often.

Don't know what it means for balance :shrug: but it seems a little off when taken that way.

[Luke Danger]

Well, when I played a stealth char, I emoted "Fades into the shadows", to represent him stealthing. Yes, I did do it at the click of a button sometimes, but usually it was because I either, A: Don't have time to emote, or B: They know because I've been with them so long that it'd be tedious to emote it. It was hardly HIPS though, as he always did it in wild areas or where there was something to hide in (IE, ruins, trees, the shite-smelling bush, etc)

[Howlando]

Stealth is fine.

Lots of areas have different modifiers in addition to the default ones - it is easier to hide in certain areas, more difficult in others. This is by design. It is hard to spy in certain well lit taverns.

With modest investment in stealth you will do very well against monsters.

Well moderate to intensive investment in stealth you will do well against PCs who don't invest in spot/listen.

Only the very best stealthers will do very well against PCs that invest in detection abilities.

The balance is good.