Hostage Situations

[scribjellydonut]

I'm kinda just throwing it out there to get some thoughts but I played on another server one time and I was with a group, and a PC snuck up behind one of our players who was straggling and held them at knifepoint(like the knife is at his neck) and was demanding something from us(a piece of loot we had acquired from a quest that he had seen us get). It was great RP, and it went well, up unto the point when one of our party members just said "hey I'm a super duper PC, let me attack" and they did. I mean, we get it, by NWN mechanics, you can fight a rogue who has snuck up behind your teammate and kill them easily with your greatsword. The whole idea, though, is that they are being held at knife point(sorta like Splinter Cell if you've ever played the game), so if you make a move like that, they simply slit the player's throat. Unfortunately, save for assassin, there is no such way to do things like that mechanically in NWN. Even with an assassin, the only thing the other players have to do is shoot the assassin and initiate combat, thereby negating even the death attack(which btw is pointless anyhow since it only paralyzes someone in place while his party members pummel the assailant)
 
Recently, I did something similar to this to a DM controlled NPC, and I will say this, at least the DM emoted the NPC wriggling away(which I didn't do a knife to the throat but rather a sword to the back, so this could have been possible with the NPC wearing armor). But it is a real buzzkill if you're trying to play your stealth character and interrogate someone Splinter Cell style(we'll start referring to it as that) and due to the NWN engine, there is no real way to do this. I guess this isn't so much any kind of suggestion to implement such a way, but just something to let everyone know that it would be much more fun to see. If you catch yourself in that situation, please don't lame it up by simply attacking the person holding the other guy hostage... I'm sure if a scenario like this came up in a DM event you wouldn't act so silly, because the DM really could just 'slit' your throat and insta-kill you, so just act with other PCs who've manage to take you off-guard the same you would in a DM event/situation.
 
By the way, for everyone who reads a post as if it were directed to their very soul, let me make the disclaimer that this is not directed at anyone, and in fact I have not even seen a situation like this on EfUA... yet:cool:
 
Thoughts?

[AKMatt]

There are two sides to this.

It is unfortunate that hostage situations as you describe above cannot work, but hostage situations have been done EfU before that involved taking a hostage to a remote place and using them as a bargaining chip that way.

What would be more unfortunate, I think, is if just because a character took stealth feats, maxed dexterity, and maxed stealth skills, they were allowed to emote killing someone in one blow and it would happen.  If this was allowed, an archer could just as easily emote "[Sits on rooftop, gets into position, takes out the would-be killer before he can slit the hostage's throat.]"

It might be better to shape your RP to what the mechanics permit.  You can always just play it off as that person managed to slip out of the assassin's grip just in time, taking only a slash across the cheek (since that's approximately the amount of damage a dagger deals).

[Vlaid]

I'll say I was in a situation like this, where a goblin assassin PC had a knife to my throat and I played along even though I was at full health and could have very likely just punched him and drank an invis potion.

I don't know what the DM's take is on situations like this. I'm inclined to believe they would be loathe to simply let you "slit their throat" and insta-kill someone just because you had a high stealth skill and a sharp weapon.

[Snoteye]

The engine wins this round.

[lovethesuit]

If you're level 2 or higher, your neck is thick enough to take several cuttings.

[sylvyrdragon]

If I am reading this correct, scribejellydonut, is not saying he wants the 'ability' to one shot kill someone in this situation, just that he would like to see the RP take on the FEEL of a life or death situation.

Yes I know that there is (most likely) no way he is going to kill me with that dagger to my PC"s throat... but the RP does not have to reflect this.

RP the fear, RP the anger, don't just click a button and be done. I think that is what the original post was getting at.

[Letsplayforfun]

It's like when you're threatening that 110hp barbarian at the tip of your crossbow, even 10 people are aiming at him...

The engine doesn't support that, so either the opposite side will play along (should - but then you shouldn't tell them how to rp?), or you'll have to resume to basic fighting.

The 'coup de grace' doesn't even work on PCs.

[Broken Crockery]

the rogue just fully buffs, takes down the low hp wizard, and goes: "let's bargain."

more then likely though the party will be like: "let's kill you!" and then the poor wizard dies. oh well. bad friends i guess.

[Drakill Tannan]

I dislike players not willing to lose. If i were caught in that way, and my character would not subdue, i would send a tell to the player, asking for the following agreement.

I make a dex check, he makes a dex check, if i win i am free, if he wins he slits my throat, i emote death and the rouge OOC kills me with his sneak attacks.

And then we could reach some agreement on how it be done. You'll agree with me that is not unfair, it's nor overpowered for either side, should he fail he risks death but can still get away, should i fail i die, just die.

But most players would probably mechanically get away from me before i could send the tell, and if i send it before i start emoting they would metagame a way out. Or tell me it is astupid idea, no one ever uses rolls, no one ever wants to try.

Maybe a sistem can be done to fix this?

I'm thinking a wand, with a touch attack that only works when the oponent is flat-footed. If it hits, without a saving throw the target is held (mechanically) But the caster can't walk away from it.The target could make a check to break free at any time (throuhg a chat window) and if he fails he would be subdued.

..maybe?

[Howlando]

Absolutely not. "Emote kills" on undamaged opponents is NOT acceptable. You should not ask people OOC'ly to play along.

What is acceptable, is to subdual an opponent, and - bang - you have your hostage. This has been done on countless occasions.

A subdualed opponent lying at your feet can easily be killed with one quick thrust of the knife.

[Drakill Tannan]

Since you're de DM, Howland, i'll do as you say.

But, may i ask why this messure?  If both players concent there is absolutely no harm done, becase it will only happen if the two players want it to (you can't force it) and it makes sence RPwise. The mechanics don't allow it, sure. But if we stick by the mechanics only, we should be able to send tells to comunicate with other chracaters, automatically know character names even if disguised, use party chat to talk to people at the other side of the island, talk underwater.. just to start with the chat bar.

EFU:A is very melee combat oriented. Maybe i haven't been here enough, but the strenght is in the frontliner tanks, and everything else is support. There are exceptions, yes, but most situations are solved with direct melee combat, not by stealth, tricking somone, leading an ambush. Spell casting doesn't work either because a mage can't fight several waves of high HP enemies due to limited spellcast.

Think of this, as a way to add diversity to the server. Encourages people to make rogue/stealth chracters who can solve things through other ways (Hostages, ambushes, tricking) that swinging a longsword.

[ScottyB]

Rogues and wizards are quite capable of subduing (or just outright killing) someone from stealth/with an appropriate spell selection. They have done so in the past, and usually get the job done in a couple of rounds. I've been witness to one-round kills.

Then they can either hover over/aim at the subdued person and make threats, or they nab the corpse and flee, making bargains for it later. (Gives new meaning to the tactic of "shoot the hostage.")

Most action movies have someone making the mistake of trying to hold a main character at the end of a knife or gun; while these really could kill a normal person, the fact of the matter is that action characters have plot armor (HP). The most overpowering characters won't even get scratched (AC), but for dramatic tension, that knife might leave a nick, or Neo ends up with a few graze wounds. Or if your [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Name is Inigo Montoya[/COLOR], you take the full and normally-fatal hit, but refuse to go down.

While that's not any sort of "official" interpretation of the engine (not even an EFUA-endorsed one) it's a perspective that I've developed for most mechanical conventions in RPGs. Basically, the rules should be an abstraction, not a simulation. Some people might disagree with that.

[Jayde Moon]

Most action movies have someone making the mistake of trying to hold a main character at the end of a knife or gun; while these really could kill a normal person, the fact of the matter is that action characters have plot armor (HP). The most overpowering characters won't even get scratched (AC), but for dramatic tension, that knife might leave a nick, or Neo ends up with a few graze wounds. Or if your [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Name is Inigo Montoya[/COLOR], you take the full and normally-fatal hit, but refuse to go down.

Expounding on this into a bit of a RL arena:

IRL, people who are untrained, afraid, and have little to gain (keep your wallet?) and EVERYTHING to lose (their life) by resisting a man with a knife to their throat are under the power of a man who takes them hostage in that manner.

Trained and/or brave men from soldiers to martial artists to adrenaline junkies can and will resist someone with a knife to their throat.  You might not think it, but grabbing somebody with only one arm while using your other arm to hold a knife is actually a very untenable position to grapple somebody.  Even if you are trained in holding someone down, you're actually only doing it with one arm.  Someone who's been in a lot of scraps can easily maneuver out of such a hold and is probably going to suffer at most a scratch.

Now, of adventurers and warriors and all that stuff that are our PCs... which of the two groups I mentioned above do you think they belong in?

[Drakill Tannan]

I understand there are other ways of having hostages, and to kill a person in a few rounds, i'm not saying they don't. I'm saying the server encourages too much the solution to every conflict with skull bashing mechanics while some situations can be best RP entirely, such as holdgin a hostage at knife point.

My queston is, why disallow a style of RP that bring no unfair advantage to a player and that makes sence RPwise? Plus this could be pretty fun to play along with. Who cares about the mechanics, sence, balance, if we're all having fun? And it's optional by concent of all players, so all must agree therefore no harm done for anyone?

Wizards and rogues may be very capable in PvP, but how about quests? That's what i meant with everything being in support frontliner tanks. I've compelted quests without rogues, wizards, clerics etc. I've never completed a respectable quest without anyone who would go in the frontline and melee. Alternative solutions such as more vialbe ambushes should be avliable for quests.. maybe i'll give it a thought and actually suggest this later.

[Jayde Moon]

Because even if someone consents to 'playing it',what method of adjudication are you going to use to come to an agreeable solution.

If I consent to letting you hold a knife to my throat, will you consent to me grabbing your arm and pulling you over me in a judo body-flip?  But maybe then you can RP a counter throw?  I'll RP by powering up a Qi Ball and launching it at your head.

I mean, what level are you?  What level am I?  Do you know?  you shouldn't.  Maybe your 4th lvl fighter has my 8th lvl wizard.  Wait, as a wizard can I judo flip you?  What if I'm a monk?  Do I have to be higher lvl as a monk to judo flip you if you are a wizard?  What if you are a fighter?

Do we just make this shit up as we go along?

What if I'm OK to play along with it until I decide I feel like your making me feel a little dumber than I wanted and now I don't want to play your silly game anymore?  Are you gonna cry foul when I simply mark you hostile and sneak attack you a few times before you realize I'm not interested int he RP thing anymore?

"Why disallow a style of RP that bring no unfair advantage to a player and that makes sence RPwise?"

Because it's a headache fraught with peril that the DMs simply don't want to have to bother adjudicating when it inevitably goes wrong and someone's crying foul.