Some gripes articulated

[Kotenku]

If you'll bear with me, I'd like to take a moment to try and articulate why I feel that EfU:A isn't living up to my own expectations. Understand that I'm not trying to rock the boat, put down the hard work the DMs have done, or convince anyone that the server is somehow worse than it was before, or no longer fun to play on.

The purpose of this thread is for me to express as well as I can, something that I feel ought to at least be addressed in an open and thoughtful way. Believe me when I say I would like my mind to be changed about this; as well, that I'm not certain whether the actual problem is with the server itself, or if I've just grown disenchanted with the nature of PW:Story servers in general.

Since EfU, EfU:A has changed in a number of substantial ways. One in particular: it doesn't feel like a high-fantasy setting anymore. the EfU:A setting has turned the Forgotten Realms from a vibrant and magical place, into the 'Dark Age of Feudal Politics'.

I have personally been unable to find myself interested in any of the currently established factions. I have a hard time explaining it. Perhaps I need to give them a fairer chance, but I think I can best put it this way: The Factions of Sanctuary each stood for something. They had some sort of moral high-ground which characterized them.

The Watch, tasked with the impossible defense of the city against the faceless black.

The Seekers, seeking Freedom at ANY cost.

The Spellguard, Knowledge and Control, through deception, oppression, and carefully calculated demonstrations of Power.


I confess, my view on the current factions of EfU:A is likely one of ignorance. I see it thus: Who the Watch, Spellguard, and Seekers were, and what they wanted was immediately obvious, even during the Alpha stage of Sanctuary.  They each had their own romantic charm, which drew people in. Here is what I see from EfU:A's established factions:

The Order: Dogmatic Good. They'll, I dunno, bust heads if you get in the way. Defend the Colony.

The Stygian Armada: Lawful Evil, I guess? Money, the chance to kill stuff.? Defend the Colony.

House Sharboneth: Neutral, Make the Colony successful. Defend the Colony.

Crudely put, I know. There is surely more to the story then that. I HOPE there is. But the factions don't seem to have any actual stake in the survival of the Colony. They haven't got a compelling reason to care about the colony's future. Therefore, I haven't got a compelling reason to care about any of them.
If any of them were to disappear by plot, or be retconned out of the setting, I can't see myself expressing anything but apathy, or perhaps cautious optimism.

---
But the thing that bothers me more about the setting, is the focus on politics, over adventure. I know there is still adventure to be had by some, but it seems (again, from my ignorant position) that the DM team is aggressively trying to herd people into the settings' factions, and thereby reinforcing the political aspect of the server, which I personally find to be a drudge. I can't say that I've experienced true immersion in the setting at all yet, except in the early days. (Boohoo, I know. Whatever!)

I know people will try to point at specific instances of adventure and tell me "Look! adventure isn't dead!", and hey, you're not wrong.

I just don't get the feeling of playing in a Fantasy Setting anymore. It seems to be an island chain populated entirely by humans, doing human things like building a city (and it doesnt really feel much like a city, either). The humans are overwhelmingly faceless and boring. Outside the human settlements are some nasty animals, but only a few of them are particularly interesting. Then there are some orcs and goblins and kobolds thrown in like a tiny pinch of salt on some kind of dish that needs a lot more salt than that.

The Mist Ogres are very cool, but they aren't enough. The other monsters custom to EfU are very interesting, but range from redundant to pathetic. Assassin Vines,Yellow Musk Creepers, Gibbering Mouthers, Howlers, etc. All are very cool, but none of them feel like they actually make the island a threat to the people living on it.
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But really, tell me what the overall theme of the server is these days.

In Old EfU, you could ask that question, and I would tell you without hesitation that the theme of the server was survival. Ask me now, and I'll tell you that the theme is Feudal Politics, or High Court, or something like that.

Does that actually appeal to people? I suppose it must. I know DangerousDan seems to enjoy this stuff, and he's allegedly a person, so others must, too.

I've felt bad my whole time writing this, because I feel like I'm taking the piss out of the server, complaining about the things people have worked hard on. Marcus Aurelius said that when you complain, all you're doing is hacking and destroying. I can see that it's true, but I don't consider this to have been a rant, or complaining. I'm trying to see who else feels the way I do, to see if maybe there really is a problem, if it isn't just me.

Perhaps I really have simply become disenchanted with PW story servers in general. No, of course I don't think showering everybody with +3 magic items and epic level monsters is the way to go. I'm not convinced that anything can or will or should be done to change the way the server is right now. My hope with this post, is that I get some thoughtful responses that go beyond "You're wrong on every point, gtfomyserver" (I find it disappointing that I'm even worried about this reaction being an issue). I hope also, that I may have helped articulate some of the frustrations of other people.

[Mort]

I'm certain lengthy nostalgia posts are part of the solution, somewhere.

[Random_White_Guy]

Its funny, but from the DM perspective, I see this as almost the exact opposite of your views, Kot.

We try to emphasize the politics because there really -is none-.

PC Banner factions with stake in Politics are minimal.
PCs seeking magistrate/courtseats/etc are minimal.
PCs joining factions for power/prestige/etc are minimal.

I for one love the politics. That's why most of my forum posts as of late have been about joining factions.

Regarding factions, Yes. Things are not as black and white as they were in EFU.

There is a glorious shade of grey between everything to let PC's influence things. I for one love it, and know some PCs do, but if that is an issue then it is something we will have to discuss.

I'd much rather have a faction where the superiors are more morally ambiguous and not so dead-set on goals, allowing more PC interaction.

EFU got to the point where you could close your eyes and point at a Spellguard agent, and likely guess what he put on his application. Same with the Seekers.

If you want it black and white, I'll gladly oblige.

The House of Sharboneth as a whole is all about monetary obtainment. Why is an IC thing to pursue, but OOCly they are here, trying to hold this colony together, to build and maintain an economic growth. Its Armsmen are here to keep peace, despite their smaller military force. The Retainers are here to keep the House prominent in the eyes of the citizens.

The Stygian Armada is a group of elite, cuthroat, filthy, seedy, morally ambiguous mercenaries. They're known to enlist an entire legion of Saughin (Shark-men) Monsters that they unleash on their foes with mosterous ferocity. Their business here is, yes, monetary, but for completely different means than the Sharboneths (Also to be determined IC).

Looking at those two factions I can see how you would see that as "Defend the colony". But the fact of the matter is its the reasons behind that, where the ideology lay, that make them dynamic factions.

House Sharboneth is here for their own interests. The Stygians are here for their own interests.

The Spellguard and Seekers have been ridiculously romanticized. Having been in both factions as a PC I can tell you yes, there was alot of awesome conflict but there's A) No reason EFUA can't obtain that and B) Not every seeker/SG conflict was a historic tale of legend.

If we made an EFU list like you made the EFUA one, It'd be just as cynical.

Seekers: Wander underdark looking for the way, Kick the shit out of Spellguard, Talk shit about the Council.

Spellguard: Protect the colony, Wander around the machine, Beat up Seekers, Try to control politics.

The beauty of EFU and EFUA Alike is that it is in the hands of PCs to shape things.

Sometimes DMs run things other times PCs take initiative on things and change them.

The conflict that brewed between the Spellguard and Seekers was, yes, begun by the DMs. Just as we've begun it here with our factions. PCs have picked up on it from time to time, but in the end for things to truly click it has to be on both ends.

We've got a handful of DMs and dozens upon dozens of players.

If PC's want things changed they have to meet us half way. As a DM I know I for one am always glad to see factions boom because yes, I enjoy politics and conflict. As a PC I loved it too.

EFUA has infinitely more grey-area for PC's to develop on their own. There's just as much danger and chaos, but at the end of the day its what you the player makes of it.

To get back to the first point you made though, Politics over adventure? Surely you jest. I've seen some of the areas on this server, as I know you have, and there's amazing adventure to be had. A PC in either the Sharbs or the Stygians taking up awesome feats of adventure is always noticed by the DMs. Just like Non-faction PCs taking up adventure is noticed.

As for the area beyond the Colony seeming "Faceless", To some extent this is true, but to another extent its false.

Stargazers, The Bog, The Wyvernwater, The Mountains, The Webbed Woods Forests, the Desert. All of these places have present and past plots, as well as future. Far more than Underdark did at any rate, in my opinion.

There's nothing that says you can't join a faction -for- adventure. In fact I imagine most DMs would find it of interest.

So long as it was -done well-. Adventure is not "Questing". Adventure is finding new areas. Finding new allies. Finding new foes.

The Sharbs and Stygians are in an arms-race for resources. Perhaps it hasn't been articulated well enough to the rest of the populace but in the DM Factions it is stressed greatly.

Adventure is how you find those. Untapped mines. Untapped Forests. Etc.

Adventure is alive and well on EFU. So alive and well that we've taken to trying to boost our DM factions to see people adventuring -for a reason-.

Tit for tat on the lengthy posts. Hopefully it helped with your concerns/gripes. Throw me a PM here or on IRC if there's anything else you need.

[djspectre]

I agree with a lot of what was said here. The factions all look like blurry versions of each other. No clear cut lines between any of them.

The Seekers were a thorn in everyone's side because they were Chaotic Good, do good regardless of who you piss off.

Watch was do good, but you're hands are tied in a lot of ways.

Spellguard was exert control at every opportunity possible and make sure that everyone there knows THEY run the place.

Gray Druid Circle was openly against the spellguard and their animatrons, that was their schtick.

Society: disenfranchised crusaders fighting against the darkest and most dangerous creatures in the Underdark.

Council: make laws, but everyone knew they were puppets to the other factions.


Right now, the factions are all: exert control but don't really hate other factions because we all have the goal to 'defend the colony'. We have a strong druid and nature faction which, to be honest, is probably the best faction we have.

The other thing I feel is missing is that the server itself lost it's overall goal as a whole module. The Underdark setting had all the subplots and mysteries all (even if falsely so) tied into a larger umbrella idea of ESCAPE to back home.

These islands should be treated almost as like Gilligans Island and Lost combined with D&D, but with no interaction from the outside world.

Sanctuary NEVER had random sailors that just showed up from other parts of the underdark. That realm was far too dangerous for that. So when visitors did arrive, it was a HUGE deal.

In this setting we have Old Port, and Sharboneth and the 900 Brothers and countless armadas and shipping companies, coming and going from these islands as if its part of some established city-state. And in an established city-state, little events that would rock the world of a survivalist world become passe and overlooked details.

For godssakes, we've all be sucked into this island for no reason or been shipwrecked for an unknown reason and NOT A SINGLE PERSON CARES. We're all like "Oh, I just got sucked to some place thats not home away from all my life, family, belongings, wealth, power....um. Okay. No big deal." What?! No one would react so uncaring about those things. Sure a few would, but everyone? No way.

No one is trying to get back to their homeland. No one is fighting for survival. No one (or an extreme few) are trying to figure out WHY we were all brought here or what powers the teleporter. There is no DM Faction for this the way the Seekers and Spellguard existed in this capacity. The Spellguard wanted the secrets of the machine and Animatrons, the Seekers wanted to find a way out: Both groups goals required them to find out more about the settlement these hapless adventurers now find themselves stuck in.

The mystery and danger of the Nightrisers was intriging, but nothing became of it. Now the nature factions have two rival factions, but again, it doesn't openly involve anyone not in a nature faction.

I agree that a lot of what Mort and RWG said is true, the thing is, its not coming across to everyone like what you described. I read the forums, I interact with players from the factions. But the idea of financial greed for a faction's goal....that's kinda lame if every faction has that same goal aside from Colony defense.

The comment about the seekers fighting the spellguard, etc was good because it pitted two factions against each other (at the very least) and non faction members took sides. Right now I don't see the Stygians or the Sharboneths, who both want wealth, really at each others throats. Nor do I see the order trying to actively and publicly oust corruption in the two groups.

now that I've just given myself a mark of evil-eye syndrome from those who've put in a lot of work, I'll give a few suggestions that could bring back the intensity and remove the fat.


IDEA #1
Have the teleporter cease functioning for a short time. No more new characters created for like a week or something. In that time, have a massive server event that decimates the population, NPC's included (since most of them look like merchants but don't do anything), and thus bring back the survival idea.

IDEA #2
have a hurricane hit the isles. Sorry, but islands have these at least once a year, sometimes twice in the same season. This would shut the colony off from the outside (ships wont sail into or survive such a storm) and could cause massive damage to the structures around due to high winds and flooding. This would, force a period of rebuilding and survival instincts. During this, several major NPC's and PC's should die allowing a 'changing of the guard' to sort of happen and possibly breathe life into the server.

IDEA #3
The island becomes covered in perpetual darkness until the players find out what it is and how to stop it. In this time, werewolves terrorize the ziggurat on a regular basis, almost to the point of scaring the population not to wander outside of its walls. This could also be the time to introduce a new, super-villain like a Red Dragon or something so that even after the darkness is gone, the danger still remains. This new Villain also terrorizes any who approach the isles (works best with a dragon since it can fly) thus sealing us off from outside supplies and people.

IDEA #4
An earthquake. Islands typically form along areas of great seismic activity. Such an event could cause tsunami's (hurling ships far inland, imagine a ship crashing into the midst of the Starwood!), cracks in the islands surfaces which could release any number of demonic/underdark/hellish creatures onto the isles. Not only would people die in this event, but it could be linked to a greater evil somehow. It would also open the idea up for new areas of exploration on the server, including potential cavern, lava, windy-cavern-type places.

Hope this has been a constructive addition to this conversation.

[VanillaPudding]

I don't have too much time to respond right now, but I'll say what I can for what little it is worth.

Your point on the factions is fairly true in my eyes. This kind of relates to some previous discussions really, but it seems as if one of them was removed or swallowed up by another it would not change anything major on the server. This leaves a feeling that they are not truly important in the overall story of the server.

It often feels like I'm swimming against the tide here, but I'm not really sure why. The setting almost feels claustrophobic, in a sense, making it somewhat static in nature. For example, I don't think a new player from two months ago would notice much of anything different than a new player logging in today. While there are obviously things different, the scale of any change seems to be rather small.

I don't know, I have a hard time saying what I mean so it's probably better I don't write too much more.

[Howlando]

I'll respond in more detail later but I definitely do not agree that the emphasis is on politics.

Adventure and Building is probably the two big themes.

Crazy creepy island chain filled with all kinds of secrets, dungeons, weird islands, oppressive nobles, ancient passes, varieties of terrain, hideous monsters? Sounds like a great place to be an adventurer.

And then the town itself, if Sanctuary was all about taking a (relatively) thriving settlement in the Underdark and watching it implode over the course of two years - what we're doing up here is taking a completely empty ruin and building it into what will hopefully eventually be a real city.

More later maybe. I do agree that our factions have never quite fallen into place.

[SkillFocuspwn]

While I understand a lot of Tenkipoo's points, I really do not see this "blurred factions" thing.

House Sharboneth, is a Noble House devoted to "taming" Ymph and turning the Colony into a respectable and well-off city. They do such through politics and battling its foes, and they are very clearly a faction devoted to what is best for the Colony, as they -are- the Colony.

The Armada, however, is a Mercenary Group devoted solely to making money. They do not want what is best for the Colony, and they care only for wealth. They are unscrupulous, they are vicious, and they are mercenary, and they are for the most part detached from politics unless it benefits them fiscally.

The two, in my eyes, are not in the slightest inter-changable, and going from a servant of the Armada to a servant of Sharboneth, I have seen the massive difference in ideals and motives of each faction. House Sharboneth is a thoughtful, dedicated and disciplined group devoted to keeping the Colony safe and promoting its best interests. The Stygian Armada is a ruthless, heartless company whose aim is solely to uphold its own interests and squeeze money out of every pore of the Colony.

[SkillFocuspwn]

More!

The idea of desperately turning the Colony back into Sanctuary is silly. Just because Sanctuary was really cool because it was isolated doesn't make EfUA instantly awful because it's not alone. Howland sums that up very nicely, but some of this really seems to be purely pining for the UD. Don't spoil the fact there's a really awesome server right here because you still want the old one!

I personally prefer the greedy factions. The Seekers, everyone wanted three things; Find the Way, stop the Spellguard and stop Corruption. The Spellguard were; Exert military and political power, assist the Watch when prudent and stop any threat to the Spellguard's power. In these limited goals, only so many characters can appear! Okay, the factions now are still limited in terms of alignment, but that's not really terribly important! If you're evil, you won't want to join the Order.

And apart from that, they're not limited at all. Are you an evil, greedy bastard willing to work to the scheme of things to get what you want done? Join House Sharboneth or the Armada! Are you a noble, good soul devoted to defending the cause of righteousness and protecting the innocent? House Sharboneth or the Order appeals to you! But, as either of these two, are you also crazy racist? Want to get rid of Gobsquat? Hey, still all three factions open! Want to try and promote your God, make sacrifices (of evil things or holy warriors), and build a church to them! Still all three (assuming your God is the Three for the Order)

The factions are on EfUA means to an end. They don't come with central goals to base your PCs around, but your PCs already come fully fitted with those! You can be a lot of non-chaotic things (other than Elf) and still find a place in those factions, and for everything else? PC factions are fully encouraged to take part in actively creating the world (look at Proverson Mercantiles), and even if you're not interested in factions, there are still political positions like Magistrate up for grabs!

And this is all just inside the Colony, I'm not mentioning the Criminal Underworld, the Cult of Rot or the Stewards of the Ark! My point is, this is EfUA, not EfU, and you have to ask yourself: Do you not like this server, or do you just miss the old one? Because the old one was awesome, but the story's moved on, and this is the Archipelago.

And we like to party.

[derfo]

I sort of had similar gripes to Kotenku at first, and granted I skimmed over only the initial post, I'm starting to feel pretty unjustified in most of them.

EFUA is overall change to EFU, to which I expect an indefinite amount of people are naturally opposed, and it inevitably has features, better and worse than it's predecesor, that you'll need to adapt to.

[Howlando]

One challenge I'd propose to anyone so inclined, is to do this:

Imagine if you were a DM, and trying to build a faction that would suit this particular persistent world really well.

Now, as a player, go forth and build it.

Successful player-run factions are the best. We have some, and there's always the danger of having too many with too few members.

But it'd be great to see some more take off. And not just the evil cult variety or the "Followers of " variety.

[Howlando]

Something to keep in mind about EFU:A, is that it really is your (the playerbase's sandbox).

The DM team and myself are going to do what we can to make the place is as awesome as it can be, but for the place to be successful I think the playerbase as a whole needs to take responsibility/work at it themselves too (whether that be making the factions work, pc factions work, bringing in and looking out for new players, including other people, making the place fun, etc.).

Speaking for myself, I'm just not in a position the log the kind of DM time in I used to in EFU.

So, here is EFU:A. It's beautifully built. The bills are paid. Tell us what you need, go forth, and make awesome, my friends.

[Random_White_Guy]

You get out of the server what you put into it.

Sometimes that works out better for people who have more time, but It really is true.

The people who throw in the most effort to things 9/10 times get the most favorable results.

[Cruzel]

I think the status quo has a lot of unfufilled potential, but I don't think it will ever be tapped as things are now, tbh.

The 'Problem' with EFU:A is that it is a sandbox. Almost everything I see put it is done so in a way that players can messs around and make something of it and such.

In principle it is a great idea, except 90% of our players would rather stick to one corner of the sandbox and play with an already built sandcastle than to fill a  few buckets and make their own.

Most players are content to just quest, RP a bit, and that's that. The few people who do go off with their own buckets and shovels are the ones often showered in DM loot and such, which inevitably leads to envy and such over 'Dm favoritism'.


While that 10% who actually take initiative are well off, most of the players would rather be told what to do, given a set of goals then try to complete them.  In my opinion this is why things seem stale; most of the players are followers, not leaders.

Most of the time, at the first sign of DM interaction, (Spice, DM quest, random mob posession, posessed NPC, whathaveyou) I see mixed results. Some people say "FFS now we're going to all die and lose our levels", some say "WOOT, phat loot/XP!", Some people say "Meh", and some people just say "This is going to be awesome". In EFU:A I have noticed a lot more of the DM interaction = XP loss, than anything else. Then again, if all people ever do is quest then all the DMs can really do is spice them.

Why? I talk to some people about this in my backend channels and PMs and such. A lot responses I get from other players are things like; "I don't really want to bother the DMs" or 'They are probably busy with other stuff''  or 'They don't pay attention to me anyways'.  Things like that, which are kind of discouraging. Generally speaking I try to get as far as I can without DM interaction when attempting to do something, but sometimes you just need to hit them with a PM and say "This is what I want, would you be interested in running something for it?"  From there, the ball can only keep rolling.

Example : The Bounties. I do not think I have ever seen one of the ones against NPCS claimed, because Players for the most part lack the initiative to go out and look, they have misgivings about asking a DM to help, Etc. Unless it is a DM quest that the DM posesses an NPC saying "Oh no there are some dudes that are bad/good! Please assemble a group at to help defeat them!". Which brings us back to initiave/playerbase of followers, etc.

Mind you, the only time I have done this I ended up leading a party to fight the second priestess under the Matron mother of Traensyr or something ridiculous like that. My pc did end up dying but it was still pretty cool. The point is, it is very hard for them to do anything cool for you if they don't know what you want, and the only way for them to know is for you to ask!  It is not bothering them, and that is why they are DMs, to help your PC's story be cooler. Don't shy away from them, use them!

[domare]

I think that Kotenku has brought up some very constructive criticisms that I have even felt in some ways.  EfU was a masterful fantasy creation that created healthy faction/PC conflict.  Majority of the time, I felt that every action conducted by the player base resulted in some sort of reaction (whether positive or negative to the stability of Sanctuary).  When I was playing EfU, I always felt that Sanctuary was hanging together by a thin thread.  Additionally, I felt that major shifts on the Server were logical reactions to some sort of IG action (majority of the time).  EfU:A, I don’t know if I can say the same thing at this point.

I think Djspectre comments addressed this.  Even from within the Sharboneth faction, I felt that just about any ship, faction, organization can pull up start building on the island. Rarely did I ever get a feeling that any of these moves were popular or unpopular with House Sharboneth, which made it quite difficult to RP even within the faction.  

My positive contribution to the server is this:  Old Port is awesomely done and should be expanded RP wise IG!  Any PC’s who has had the privilege of RP’ing in the town would run back to the Colony of Sharboneth and kiss the ground.  (i.e. being watched and stalked through the city, merchants scared to death to communicate openly, guards physically escorting us through town to keep an eye on us, insuring we all got on the boat back, etc).  Truly awesome.  

The Colony of Sharboneth is geographically separated from Old Port., has its own resources (agriculture, fish, precious metals, water, etc).  Not to mention the island has a ton of ancient artifacts of wondrous power waiting to be found.  I would think this all combined would turn the colony into a rambunctious and independent city state.  (Again like Scotland/Ireland was to England back in the day)  

I am sure the very smart and supportive PC/DM base will make totally awesome things happen, even if it isn’t my playbook.  

Good comments from everyone I think

[Vlaid]

I can't say I've been playing a lot in recent months, but from my limited experience, I like what Cruzel said. I'm not a leader, I've tried before, with mixed results. I would rather carve out something in a supporting actor role to help elevate someone with amazing goals and ideals (and more time than I could hope to have to play anymore) to something even cooler (everyone needs people like that).

Lately I've gotten lost in the mass of grey areas, trying to find something cool to be/do, and just haven't been able to do it. Blame it on lack of creativity, blame it on my bad work schedule. But judging from this thread, I guess I'm not the only one having this loss of feel of direction.