A Case against Level Advancement XP and Solo Quests

[djspectre]

Let me preface my comments with a couple of statements:

1.) I feel that EfU is one of the best put together PW's out there, if not the best. I love the server, generally love all the DM's and think that the larger, arching plots are suitably epic in scale and scope.

2.) my comments below are not to be treated as a 'rant' or a 'flame thread'. Nor are they to be treated as if I dislike the majority of the custom content and scripting and months of man hours put into building these systems.

I love all that has been done here, but I do think there might be two area's that could create a bit more energy by eliminating:


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There are 3 things that I feel are problematic and have held back the RP potential of this server and, in one case, makes it feel like an MMO.

1. XP advancement system
2. Chained starter quests
3. Quantity of solo/semi-repeatable quests


1. The XP advancement system.
Just giving people free xp for standing around is a silly idea. At first I thought it was a neat idea, but after having played 3-4 characters now, I find it not as good as I once thought. (it also feeds into my second issue I'll mention later)

The reason is simple: you are giving people a reward for no effort. This doesn't encourage more role-playing or pc-to-pc interactions (which is the core reason for this server) because you're just standing around until you're level 4.


2. Chained starter quests (beginning with the guy who gives you the Welcome to Sanctuary book).
These are a great idea for one reason: they teach you the history of the server once you get to Serena Tower and get you a sending stone. The rest of the links aren't important and don't serve a purpose really other than some loosely strung together ideas. Additionally, these quests give far too much XP for simple delivery quests.

Perhaps, instead, make these as they used to be: independent quests. You still can do them all at once, but chaining them together makes them feel like one big boring chain that doesn't promote RP or give a person a chance to do them out of order to change things up a bit.


3. solo and/or semi-repeatable quests (the ones that let you only do them X times)

The issue here is that these quests again don't promote RP. yes the Puzzle quest makes sense to do solo, but the rest do not. Further, doing all of these quests (which all are solo-able till level 5) again removes RP potential from gathering 2-3 other people together to set of on adventure and you end up basically soloing up to level 6 without a single need to even BEGIN to RP with anyone. The fact that you can 'grind' up to a mid-strength level on a low level server makes this feel similar to an MMO where this is the standard way of doing things.

We've all heard those sendings from the intrepid player/character that ask for help on a level 5 or lower quest only to get silence for an answer because a lot of those quests can be solo'd where the reward and loot doesn't have to be shared.

So again, this removes the chance for interaction.

Several of the semi-repeatable quests also allow for more than 1 person, but since they can only be done X number of times, most people solo them so they don't risk their fellow player from skimming loot from a quest that cannot be repeated to have the chance at that loot again.

All three of these cause two major issues: people end up repeating the same quests over and over again because they are all level 5-7. And, because they are repeating the same 5 quests all day long, the quests no longer pose a challenge to them any longer because the quest design doesn't allow for any sort of chaotic nature to shake things up.

As an aside, and an alternative, tweaking existing quests in certain ways so that there is variety in them, might help alleviate some of the boredom and repetition. On this topic, I'll make a post in the suggestions thread.

[Zango_Unchained]

I am not for getting less quests and less chance for exp as that is pointless and leads back into one of the main complaints that is held by a good deal of players saying that

 "There are not enough quests and the level of reward is to low"

if you want to not do the quests and don't want advancement exp then just get to level four and never do a delivery or solo quest or any quest at all if your against gaining exp.

They are there to help the server have a base line for levels, and thats simply all there is to it.

[HalflingPower]

Rather than them restricting RP most just choose to not make something special out of them, like asking for directions even if you know where  you are going.

[Paha]

Excellent post, whether one agrees or not. Appreacited and we'll certainly discuss these matters as well. Don't know if they change or not, but we'd have to make some changes if it did, so t's not right off the bat.

[WeAllGonnaDie]

As a player with limited play time, solo quests are a big help for a new character for me.  Sometimes getting a group at all play times is tough.  I do not think a few low level quests you can solo are a real problem, the opposite.  In the "player retention" thread several people said EFU was too difficult.  I do not think making it harder is going to help those people out.

[Pigadig]

At higher levels you can roam around the server killing/exploring when there's few people online.

At lower levels you need the quests to be able to do things when nobody's around.

Otherwise people just don't log in at low traffic times, because there's nothing to do.

[Siren]

The XP advancement system only gets you up to level 4 and it's very slow to boot. I believe that it's necessary to have it in place, specially for PC's that are uncapable of leveling on their own (for example squishy wizards with few spells), or, PC's that for some reason cannot access certain quests; I for one wouldn't like to see druids doing deliveries around Upper Sanctuary to scrape together little bits of XP. So I believe the advancement XP is crucial to those who don't want to get out-of-character in order for their characters to see progression. In addition, characters based out of Lower or other less populated regions also have advancement XP as an incentive to stay logged on when they're confined to an area without players to interact with.

As for soloable dungeons, I think it's fine the way it is. There aren't that many anyway and most of the server's content seems to be aimed towards groups, so it's highly unlikely that anyone would prefer to play on their own as opposed to joining a party. Anyone playing on their own will probably take days to hit level 5, and easily another one or two weeks to hit level 6. So, I think that everyone playing will easily realise that playing solo isn't efficient in terms of character advancement, and anyone playing with an "MMO mentality" surely won't appreciate being unefficient at leveling and will either leave or adapt to the server's ways.

There's also the issue of timezones. For example, when it's morning where I am there's sometimes hardly half a dozen players on, so with solo quests, instead of sitting around, I have something for my character to do while I wait for more people to log in. By removing the solo quests, I'm afraid people will see no point in playing on their own, they'll have even less to do, which will take its toll on people that play during the server's less active times. The server population's high but not high enough to ensure that a group's readily available to take you in at all times, sometimes it's not easy at all, so I really appreciate soloable quests.

[Valo56]

I personally feel the free advancement XP has no effect at present. You can hit 4 off of the aforementioned solo quests within about a half hour. If you're unfortunate enough to die before reaching the 9k xp mark where you can no longer drop down to 3 off of one death, it's nice for getting you back up to 4.

Solo quests are excellent, and I feel we could use more of them for getting players acquainted with the server. My only suggestion regarding them would be to halve the gold dropped/given on these quests. A person can easily get upwards of 1000gp just off of simple solo quests. Additionally I've always found it hard to find healing supplies, and what there is is usually stuff that disappears after a reset. So lower GP reward and increase healing supplies, would be my suggestion.

Other than that, these quests are great for learning the bare basics or just seeing more things. It's like a prelude for larger things where you see a few elements of a larger scheme. This applies to the solo machine quest, the exploring the dark quest, the wildling camp quest, etc. Finding questing groups can be hard and it's nice to be able to head on down to the worminger caves to hack apart some stuff for a bit of quick loot, XP, and fun is nice.

I'd argue that these quests should be able to be done an unlimited number of times, albeit at reduced gold/XP reward after the first few times.

I suppose people could do these quests and only these quests to reach level 6, but you'd be vastly better as a character in all respects (supplies, gear, gold, friends, enemies, fun, etc.) if you went out and did other quests in groups.

[John Doe]

I am not even sure if everything should resolve about promoting interaction. Social interaction is great fun, but I value my time spent by myself equally if I'm in the mood for it. Solo quests, logging on and just going places and even repeating the quests that I find fun/exciting/a rewarding experience are all tbings I enjoy.

[Dillusionist]

1. The XP advancement system.
Just giving people free xp for standing around is a silly idea. At first  I thought it was a neat idea, but after having played 3-4 characters  now, I find it not as good as I once thought. (it also feeds into my  second issue I'll mention later)

The reason is simple: you are giving people a reward for no effort. This  doesn't encourage more role-playing or pc-to-pc interactions (which is  the core reason for this server) because you're just standing around  until you're level 4.

You need to move and speak to receive the award. Character  advancement experience was until 6th in EFU:M and I have no recollection  of people muttering to themselves in a corner for reward until they  were 6th level. You can look at this issue two ways:

  "We're giving people level 6 for nothing! The false  negatives who are doing cool stuff, but not going to quest sendings,  should suck it up."

 "We are making sure to reward people for scheming, pushing  agendas, and making their own fun from the start! Maybe there are some  false positives but those folks would quest train to 6th anyway."

  This ultimately encourages MEANINGFUL interactions as you  don't force people to choose between roleplay and sprinting to some  kobold sending.



 

2. Chained starter quests (beginning with the guy who gives you the Welcome to Sanctuary book).
These are a great idea for one reason: they teach you the history of the  server once you get to Serena Tower and get you a sending stone. The  rest of the links aren't important and don't serve a purpose really  other than some loosely strung together ideas. Additionally, these  quests give far too much XP for simple delivery quests.

Perhaps, instead, make these as they used to be: independent quests. You  still can do them all at once, but chaining them together makes them  feel like one big boring chain that doesn't promote RP or give a person a  chance to do them out of order to change things up a bit.

The point is to showcase sanctuary and its themes, as well  as scripted mechanics. They're meant to bring PCs to the "real" starting  level of 4. They promote roleplay in that they help newer players get  their bearings and learn what Sanctuary is all about. Since people are so liable to be overwhelmed on joining I see why its chained. It may be boring to veterans but not to someone new to EFU. The  fact you get an advancement bonus until 4th let's you skip it if so  inclined.

3. solo and/or semi-repeatable quests (the ones that let you only do them X times)
The issue here is that these quests again don't promote RP. yes the  Puzzle quest makes sense to do solo, but the rest do not. Further, doing  all of these quests (which all are solo-able till level 5) again  removes RP potential from gathering 2-3 other people together to set of  on adventure and you end up basically soloing up to level 6 without a  single need to even BEGIN to RP with anyone. The fact that you can  'grind' up to a mid-strength level on a low level server makes this feel  similar to an MMO where this is the standard way of doing things.

We've all heard those sendings from the intrepid player/character that  ask for help on a level 5 or lower quest only to get silence for an  answer because a lot of those quests can be solo'd where the reward and  loot doesn't have to be shared.

So again, this removes the chance for interaction.

Several of the semi-repeatable quests also allow for more than 1 person,  but since they can only be done X number of times, most people solo  them so they don't risk their fellow player from skimming loot from a  quest that cannot be repeated to have the chance at that loot again.

As John Doe said sometimes people do like to explore alone. And if you're just alone in Lower sometimes it brightens your day to take ten minutes to do Leeches while you wander around looking for people. Certainly this server is about interaction, but if you need a buddy to  do EVERYTHING and no suitible PCs are on the server will be a lot  emptier. Promoting interaction is important, but I don't think forcing people to find quest groups for any hope of experience gains (period) is going to promote more role play than it already does.

Roleplay is its own reward. And to be honest, nothing screams MMO grind to me more than waiting around the hall of governance going "LF tank 4 kobolds"

[Vlaid]

Thank you for being honest and direct SC. A lot of what you've said has definitely made me reconsider some of the habits I have developed as a player that may not be in anyone's best interest.

[Stranger]

One thing the community could do is organize regular, DM-independent "preludes."

I've occasionally had, and greatly enjoyed, the opportunity to roleplay on the surface by meeting another player there.

Sometimes I'm an aggressor, a desperate act of banditry for what meager supplies the other man might have, or a Thayan soldier stuck in his ways who brings his newfound slave through the portal with him. More benevolent characters of mine started fast friendships and swore to stand by their companions in the "darks" to come (even if I never saw the other guy again nine times out of nine).

All on its own, the "routine" starting experience is an opportunity waiting to be used. We don't need supervision to do it. The first, defining steps our characters take in the Underdark can be gallons of fun simply because we make it so.

Heavens know I too often mark roleplay as secondary for the sake of experience points.

[Dillusionist]

But the idea that it encourages meaningful interactions is extremely  dubious, as usually in EFU people follow their general  playstyles/mindsets regardless of these sorts of minor bonuses. The  important point is really that this XP will come to people regardless of   what people do. Casual IC questing? XP for you. Casual IC socialising?   XP for you. Plotting to change the world? XP for you. There is no  actual  discouragement of questing built into the CAB, and no actual  encouragement of anything else, just the idea that you  don't have to  always be questing to feel like you're progressing. This  is  psychologically valuable to some players.

It's important to note, also, that "not questing" is not equivalent to  proactively plotting, storytelling, and all the other nice pavlovian  buzzwords ya'll smile and nod at and repeat. It doesn't make you a  "meaningful interactor" if you are "too cool to quest" nor if you don't  enjoy questing.

That it has some psychological reward is what I was trying to get at. Thank you for putting it more eloquently.  Questing CAN feel like a chore when you do it PURELY for resources and  advancement, rather than to have fun and tell a story about the heroes  who sacked the City of Mud.

Don't take what I said to mean there's inheritly more value in not questing. I should clarify the CAB won't directly encourage or discourage questing or plotting or interaction. But it will lessen the perceived onus of questing on those who prefer not to quest often or have difficulty assembling groups. It allows them to feel some small sense of advancement while playing EFU in a way that's most fun for them, where they'll ideally be in their element and creating the best story.

The CAB does seem to send a DM endorsed message of "we want an average level of 5 or 7 or whatever."

I've personally perceived it more to be the desire to affect existing storylines, and ride in as the badass who kills a prominent PC, that drives people to keep their head down and mouth shut while they grow in power before crawling out of the wood work to do their thing. The kind of play-style that often accompanies this attitude doesn't BENEFIT from the CAB a whole lot, as was said.

(sc where did your top hat go?)

[Ebok]

I say that mostly because I actually like low level cooperative  questing. I wish we still started at level 2. I wish we had a low level  circuit full of fun, perhaps somewhat zany quests like the old rat  barricade, and the zombie circuit in Nebezzdos. It irks me that the  attitude toward low levels is to simply "get them out of the way".  Rewarding a level for talking to an NPC is like how teachers give  awkward praise to dumb kids for effort. You can't soften the blow, the  dumb kid knows they're dumb- the player knows (hopefully?) they're being  treated like an idiot and that what they just got was kind of  meaningless.

Honestly, every time I start up again and make a new character... it's this same quick solo exp circuit that ends up killing my motivation and stalling my momentum. It takes me out of whatever mindset I was in. There have been exceptions, but those are universally when I'm starting the character alongside someone else, and at each stage of everything, the IC story is paramount over delivery quests.

A good plethora of low level quests solo or cooperative (like 1-6 players, not 1 or 6 players) and a vastly reduced auto-grant of exp would liven the start of many characters. I would wish that these quests were located somewhere rather faction neutral however, so that it could be a mixing pot for character interaction. When people turn aggressive on each other, and there is some real interaction in their past, the conflicts are always better.

I don't dislike high gold starter events, but, at the same time there is something valuable about being able to get your basic essentials without needing a cleric with brew potion playing currently. Fun random loot, flavorful and at least mostly useful, is part of the joy of questing.

That said, I've only had problems with Character Advancement exp, mostly because I level up past the starter quests that normally provided the supply of goods that kept you alive. In mistlocke, I was guilty of actively avoiding long flavored Rp so I could play in the lowest level quests. The advancement pushed you past them fast. Some of which were just a balln good time with sweet trinkets. Making it a small dose of exp that lasts to a higher level would be solid in my mind. Although I do appreciate the idea of faction advance exp period. Just to give some prestige if nothing else.

...Then again, playing a low-level exile here made me wish the advancement still triggered til 6th level. Being alone most of the time and unable to quest is one of those times that some continuous advancement for playing would've been truly wonderful.