Your visions of Sanctuary

[Siren]

Decided to create this thread for people to share their vision of Sanctuary, more specifically of Upper, to see if what we have in-game reflects what's in our imagination. I'd like to put these thoughts forward to the DM team, but I decided to create the thread here rather than in the suggestions forum, so that it is easier to debate people's thoughts.

Supposedly Sanctuary is the last "safe" haven for civilized surface species after the apocalypse. Following that premise, I fear that the city feels far too organized, convenient and planned for what it should be representing.

Lower already looks perfect, in my opinion. Can't think of a single change to suggest for it. I see it as a place for the exiled, junkies, rebels and thugs. A hidden reality existing outside the Shield, home to decadence and the depraved, neglected and without a voice or representation besides themselves and those who would care enough to visit. Marginalized by the Spellguard and forgotten about by most who reside in Upper.

Upper Sanctuary on the other hand looks far too neat for a city established in a state of emergency. It's too spatious, there's far too many bridges and chasms taking up space in areas that could be used to portray the chaos and despair of those who survived the apocalypse. To illustrate what I'm trying to say, when a city is built with proper thought and planning, its streets are organized and easy to navigate. Time's given to figure out what goes where and the project comes to life gradually. It often ends up being easy to navigate, with streets that look like a grid from above. You can easily get to point A from any other point in the city. That is what Sanctuary looks like now.

However, when a city is built without proper planning, it will be far more chaotic to navigate. To get to point A, you will often have to go to point D, for access to road C that leads there. When seen from above, the city will be a spiralling mess and not look like an organized grid. That is what I imagine Sanctuary would look like.
I imagine construction would've had to happen fast in order to accomodate the influx of weary survivors coming in from above, yet any indication of that happening is seemingly missing from the area. My first thoughts upon exploring Upper Sanctuary were questions of where the survivors resided. The city feels a bit lackluster, or empty, and far too conventional for adventurers. Sure, there is Starag's rest providing accommodation to the poor and the House of Heroes renting rooms for those who've established themselves in the city, but what about the rest? I noticed a few residence hatches but... that was it.

Part of the "problem", for me, is also the atmosphere of the city. It seems peaceful and actually pretty in most areas. Places like Starag's Rest or the House of Trade do more justice to what's inside my imagination, but they constrast greatly with the neatness of Upper Sanctuary. There's a lot of bridges and chasms, a few points of interest for the factions, but little else. Do note that I'm not trying to make the place look ruined like Lower Sanctuary, but unorganized and with some people living encroached and under precarious conditions inside the shield after surviving the apocalypse, somewhat more grim.

Upper Sanctuary is the first real area of the server a new player would encounter and likely the one they'll draw most impressions of EfU's setting from. I think most new players' reactions right now are along the lines of "oh, neat...", but I think they should be overwhelmed and going "Wow... this is what humanity has become".

I would love to see it look more like it does in my imagination, perhaps a bitter Doomsayer yelling about how the end is near in one corner, petty merchants rising stalls even outside the House of Trade, surrounding it because they can't all afford to fit in there, residential buildings forming chaotic streets in the outskirts of the city's center, perhaps even a few sheds built by the hands of survivors who decided to establish their own impoverished communities within the Shield, children begging around certain corners because their parents don't make enough at the workmill, a fountain near the residential buildings where commoners wash their clothes, a seedy gloomy tavern for less established PCs to gather (where food and drinks are cheaper), and of course, in the center of all that... Freedom Square, overlooked by the mighty Spellguard tower, surrounded by the House of Governance, the House of Knowledge and the House of Heroes, the place where proeminent PCs make their appearences. That is where characters like Prefect Abala or other important figures spend most of their time, the "wealthy" center of the chaotic city. As you drift further towards the outskirts of the square, sinuous sprawnling dwindling streets of houses and other buildings constructed in a hurry for the survivors to live in, crippled beggars outside their homes, perhaps cooking is taking place in the street, little communities that contribute towards a stew together, the remainders of humanity, forced to abandon individualism and band together for surviving the aftermath of the apocalypse in an alien environment.

In my opinion, this would make the zone feel less deserted. As it is, Upper feels pretty empty, with everyone loitering around Freedom Square. Important PCs with prestige mingling with drunks and smelly orcs, because there's no place to put these characters. The bridges and chasms make any area beyond Freedom Square feel isolated and detracts from the feeling of having to make use of as much space as it is possible to within the Shield.

There's a few amazing touches here and there that allude towards Sanctuary being chaotic. Starag's Rest being such location, but also the House of Trade, those two quarreling merchants, each trying to sell their stew, both next to each other, represent the chaos that I'd like to see more of.

Note that I'm not trying to make Upper Sanctuary as gritty as Lower, they're different environments. Lower is dark, dangerous, full of decadence, bad examples and a land without rules, Upper would simply have its people packed like sardines within the shield, each trying their best to survive. Poverty differs from decadence.
Also, I realise that maybe the number of survivors isn't that great, but Sanctuary isn't that big either, which is precisely why we should feel claustrophobic inside the shield.

So yes, these are basically my thoughts, which I'd really like to put forward as a suggestion to the DM team. I think it'd make the area way more immersive and less "magnificent" than it is now with its multiple bridges over chasms that I fear take up too much space and make Upper look rather empty.

Another positive aspect to conveying this vision of Sanctuary, would be the contrast that players would feel upon leaving the safety of the Shield. They'd leave a "safe" area entirely full of human activity and enter a dark unknown gritty world, the Underdark. The loneliness would be overwhelming in comparison to what you see inside the Shield. Makes for greater impact than leaving the current zone, where you already feel rather lonely if you're not in Freedom Square.

Sorry for once more making a lengthy post, I hope it wasn't tedious to read. If the staff's vision of Upper Sanctuary is what's actually in-game right now, then I greatly respect that too and will attempt to change the image of it inside my head. Otherwise, if my post made sense, I would gladly volunteer to give more suggestions for a revamp of Upper. I know how to work the toolset so I'd gladly put together an area for the staff to take ideas from, if any of them are interested.

Thank you for reading!

(And please discuss... if you've made it this far... :???:)

[Twilight's Gift]

You .... do realize Sanctuary's been around for almost two centuries? They've had a LONG time to plan and build Upper. Lower's in ruins because it was trashed by PCs, invasions, time, and terrorism.

[Siren]

You .... do realize Sanctuary's been around for almost two centuries? They've had a LONG time to plan and build Upper. Lower's in ruins because it was trashed by PCs, invasions, time, and terrorism.

A hundred and fifty years ago, actually. A great deal of that time was spent locked inside a tower trying to survive, not exactly planning to head out there and build a city to accomodate most survivors of an apocalypse nobody saw coming. Plus, wasn't the goal of the former population to actually escape Sanctuary?

In addition, I'm sure that Sanctuary's population now far exceeds any number that it's ever seen before, seeing that there's no place to seek refuge in on the surface.

Also, even if they had spent a great deal of time planning the city, nobody builds anything without a purpose. Why would they build more than they'd need during those 150 years? Why have homes that wouldn't be inhabited? However, now that people are finding their way through portals to arrive down below after escaping from a ruined surface, it would make sense for construction to start happening, because they'd need to expand to shelter everyone. And they'd have to do so quickly.

Also, if you actually read the entire post, you'll note that I didn't question anything about Lower or suggest it should be different. I also went out of my way to stress that Upper shouldn't feel like Lower.

[Corrigo]

[Comes off overly mean spirited]

[Corrigo]

[Comes off overly mean spirited]

[Howlando]

Well, there are many reasons that Upper looks like the way it does but let me begin by saying - you are absolutely right, it doesn't look like how I'd imagine it in an ideal world.

That said, there are some things to consider.

1 - Dunwarren (the larger ruin in which Sanctuary was built) was originally a very, very large svirfneblin city. Sanctuary (Upper and Lower) is located within on its of grandest 'vaults.' Some of the buildings are repurposed svirfneblin design (for example the Spellguard tower, and anything using that rounded ruin design) whereas others are mostly new construction (the ram-shackle-type buildings).

2 - It is key to the concept of the town that 'Upper' is suspended above 'Lower' - this has thematically and historically been a very important of the setting, and all those bridges and chasms in Upper are extremely consequential in that respect.

3 - Unfortunately, there are many limitations to the NWN toolset - I'd encourage you to play with it yourself to see. It is extremely difficult to cram things together as closely as I'd like. Particularly with chasms, things generally will appear more spread out. Likewise, there are serious limitations to how large areas can be and how many placeables can be used.

4 - All that said, it is somewhat deliberate that Upper Sanctuary has a kind of ornate grandeur to it... it was rebuilt by a fairly megalomaniac organization after all; a group that very much does not wish to leave the Underdark but rather make Sanctuary's its finest jewel, a fitting capital suitable to their prestige.

I would say that I was definitely inspired by RL socialist-realist architecture and soviet-designed cities... the grand 'Freedom Square' flanked by the three 'Houses.' Meanwhile, of course, the people themselves are living in considerably more cramped quarters off to the side... the squalor of Starag's Rest, the cheerfully named 'Flats' alongside the corners of the maps, and the shambled buildings collected around the Workhouse and along the Tower of the Gods.

5 - At the end of the day, it is essential for a NWN server to have a central area not much wider than a screen that is both the crossroads for traffic as well as a natural gathering point for characters to interact with each other. I do not believe that spreading PCs and players out would be desirable.

I rushed this post a bit so I apologize if it is not clear. Hopefully it provides a little bit of insight about some of the decisions that were made in terms of the design of the area.

[gravekeeper]

I would like to sum up that Upper Sanctuary got an Iron Fist on its governance. It's a place pretty much of order and law. Everything that defies it is usually removed and thrown down into Lower or just vanishes.

STILL. It doesn't feel much like the mood I enjoy playing in EFU. There is too much comfort. There is a great sensation that everything is fine. In Upper Sanctuary I tend to forget that I am living the apocalypse and that my PC has gone through horrible things before they arrived there. I find it hard to keep on the theme and on the proposal when I play a PC of there. The only times I find myself reminded of it inside the Shields are when I'm the opposition to be tortured or hastily executed.

I think it's intentional ICly, although. Nonetheless, I prefer the mood of Lower and wilds. OH! And my favorite is the Old Prelude (I don't know the new yet)... I would love to have more Old Prelude like areas. When I firstly saw it, I felt like "damn, I don't want to get anywhere else. May I stay?"

[Siren]

Thank you both Corrigo and Howland for the explanations, they've granted me with some insight towards understanding a few doubts I had.

Suppose it comes with the territory of being new, I've been in this chapter for only around a month now and EfU's lore is a bit spread out, so I have to put it together piece by piece. Hopefully, with the new information I will be able to look at the area's design differently and not be interpreting it through my imagination meshed together with lore-facts that I manage to gather. Perhaps the new prelude does a good job at giving more insight towards certain things!

I knew that Charles Bresley and the other escaped slaves had established Sanctuary, but I didn't know that it was built upon an already existing Svirfneblin city, now things makes more sense.

Albeit I still think there is room to represent some of the things listed in my original post, they're at least pertinent for the apocalyptic server background, but my suggestions regarding the city's layout have become invalid, I believe.

Thanks for taking the time to read once more. =)

[Howlando]

I would recommend checking out the House of Knowledge and its historical preservation floor as a good source for IC knowledge.

[DangerousDan]

I would recommend checking out the House of Knowledge and its historical preservation floor as a good source for IC knowledge.

This. Wicked crash-course in server history, interactive and not at all like reading dry setting documents a la dangerousdan

[Howlando]

This may also be worth a glance.

[TroublesomeTree]

Speaking directly to the mechanical side of building things, NWN1 is great for a LOT of things that other games can't provide, but building a coherent underground cityscape isn't one of them--especially compared to NWN2.

Even building a normal city, aboveground, is very difficult in NWN1. Being honest, I think the lighting in EFU:R, more than anything else, could use a more deft touch, but Sanctuary itself is a marvel of ingenuity, both on behalf of the IC Warders that made it what it is AND on the part of the OOC builders that made these amazing areas.

Sanctuary uses almost 100% of the tools available for building an underground city, which is limited to one tileset and one set of additional placeables. Which, if you used them ALL on Sanctuary, would be worthless on the rest of the module.

[Howlando]

Thought has gone into Sanctuary's lighting, but in my experience it's very difficult to get right - particularly as NWN lighting varies dramatically according to people's individual setups. I'd be happy to experiment with adjusting lighting and seeing if it was more pleasing.

On that note, I think things look best when individual PCs carry light-sources around with them - but unfortunately it seems that using torches and light has become IC'ly unpopular and so instead PCs usually choose to go through the dark with just the gamma turned up.

[TroublesomeTree]

I didn't mean to sound quite so arrogant about it, lighting is just the one thing I obsess over the most when I'm building an area for funsies :P

[HalflingPower]

Gamma being too high hurts my eyes, but I like the way sanctuary is lit personally.  

Its also not so much people don't LIKE torches as much as the red guild merchant will give us three gold pieces for them.