Rogue stealth - 1/2 Bluff to scores

[VanillaPudding]

As the title says.

Rogues suffer in this area compared to other classes or multi-classing rangers. I think giving pure rogue's 1/2 their invested (not modified) bluff score to stealth would be a nice catch-up mechanic for them :)

This would apply to pure rogues and Rogue / PRC multi

[Trevor White]

I sort of agree, but I think it should be 1/2 Bluff for bards, 1/3 for Rogue. Bards get Stealth as a class skill but nobody uses it much because they have no additional class bonuses and it's a conflict with having Perform, Taunt etc, or just taking Invisibility as a spell.
Rogues get some nice stealth perks already. If any class is out on the cold for Stealth, it's Bards.

[Howlando]

I sort of like this idea but don't really like the idea that every stealther will henceforth also be a skilled liar. I like Bluff, I like making Bluff useful in some ways, but I wouldn't want Bluff investment to be something every rogue does.

There may be some other possibilities for tweaking stealth for PCs without access to camouflage.

[Mushroom Mushroom]

You could add a passive bonus to rogues in city areas sort of similar to what druids/rangers get in wilderness areas, perhaps?

[Trevor White]

Apologies for length. I had further thoughts as I wanted to make a stealth bard as my next PC, and found I was very much struggling in comparison to a rogue.  And even in comparison to picking a Shadow or Tribal Shaman Sorcerer, on raw numbers.

I think it's very difficult to say "rogues suffer in comparison to other stealth classes". They are the masters of urban stealth now, because their Perks stack with Camouflage consumables and can take them higher than the Ranger's situational 4/4 bonus. And EFU:R is a much more urban environment than previous chapters. They're worse than Druids because of the lack of buffs, can be comparable to Rangers in a city unless the Ranger is L8 (And remember you keep your Rogue perk if you die but not your Ranger L2 spell slot), and miles better than the other two stealth classes.

Classes with stealth, ranked roughly by "gets the most stuff" to "gets the least stuff":
Druid:
- Free +4 H/MS in wilderness.
- Camouflage and One with the Land for 6/2 and 4/5. Cat's Grace at L3.
- Tracking and AE to avoid problems.
- Wildshape, further H/MS bonuses in wildshape.
- High conflict choice because of the prohibition on shapeshifting.

Ranger:
- Free +4 H/MS in wilderness.
- Camouflage for 6/2  at L4.
- Cat's Grace and OWTL at L8, although they need spellslot gear to stack them.
- Could also use Alter Self at L8, but that attracts IC attention and disables some of your sneaking gear. And competes with OWTL or Grace.
- Tracking and AE to avoid problems.

Rogue:
- Can pick perks for up to  +5 Hide,+ 3 Move Silent everywhere, tracking, and animals don't attack you (Thief/Lurker/Scout).   
- Or a total +6/+4 H/MS and 15% perma-conceal if you are spotted (swap Scout for Shadow).
- Apothecary perk is semi-random but surprisingly very useful to stealthers. The unstable potions are biased towards those that help the average Rogue and if you can work out a sneaking-relevant recipe you can churn it out with a more limited investment in Lore/Heal/Etc.
- Can UMD other classes' stealth gear, which sometimes helps.

Monk:
- No stealth bonuses from this class.
- I suspect there's a Monk Stance with  H/MS bonuses because that seems an obvious flavour for a Stance and every other passive EFU buff seems to have an a stealth flavoured one.

Bard:
- No perk grants H/MS.
- I recall one of the Songs gives H/MS but songs don't last long.
- May spend a limited Known Spell pick on Cat's Grace. May spend a limited spell pick on Invisibility.
- May spend a spell pick on Alter Self, but both a high-conflict choice to to the shapeshifting prohibition, and disables equipment.
- Expensive class to build for stealth because of the need to pick Bard feats to get the most out of the class.
- Can UMD other classes' stealth gear, which sometimes helps.

So given all that, unless there's no Sneaking Stance, I reckon Bard's at the bottom of the table, Druid's at the top, and Rogue's a comfortable average providing you pick the stealth route. They can certainly get the most unbuffed stealth, especially in a non-wild area.

A simple way to lift up Bard stealthing could be to put Camouflage on the Bard spell list as a L1-2 spell and/or adding a Stealth perk. In terms of Monk, if there is a Sneaking Stance, being a bit more public about it would reduce any perception Monks can't sneak.

Classes without stealth but with stealth buffs
Sorcerer:
- +5 H/MS on two perks (effectively making it into a class skill rather than giving an actual bonus)   +1H/MS from the +2 DEX if you take Shadow perk. I like how the bonus is weaker for Small PCs, to make average size stealthers equally appealing.
- Player tool for either One With the Land or Camouflage, depending on perk.
- Could spend a limited spell pick on Alter Self (which makes you a PVP target due to a common prohibition on shapeshifting).

Barbarian:
- Furor that gives a small H/MS bonus. Very short lived, only really useful to a multiclass and barely at that,

[Easy To Remember]

Rogues might have a high ceiling for stealth assuming you take three stealth boosting perks and have an ample supply of Camo and OWTL, but then you have to live as a rogue who took those perks. It's a significant sacrifice compared to the other classes listed above, given that you're deprived of much more practical perks.

[Trevor White]

I agree that Rogues have a harder time than Druids or Rangers in getting to Ninja Level Stealth, and they're much more fragile when they do get spotted. Fewer HP, and most of the "save or get screwed" type things from monsters tend to be Fort (like Cubes and Vines) or Will. But I think the message here isn't "rogues need a stealth buff" so much as  "Maxed out stealth in any class with H/MS as a class skill should be useful".  Because if you balance monster detection scores to Rangers, you make it brutal on everyone else.  A stealth rogue isn't facing the Wisdom dependency of a Monk, or the feat/skill tax of a Bard. Extra Music and Curse song are feats that compete with Stealthy, and you need Perform and Concentration etc.

Yes, I agree that Rogues could do with more stealth so you don't need to powerbuild to survive. But they only suffer an opportunity cost for stealth when compared to Rangers or Druids. Not with Monks or Bards who don't get Stealth perks.  I think the Rogue 'Packed' perk and the Sorcerer' Tribal Shaman' one offer some good methods here. They let you add on some stuff thats normally hard to build up, but they don't let you minmax it. E.g Tribal Shaman gives lower bonuses for Small PCs. I used to happily roll around EFU on 14 DEX Rangers but wouldn't so much try a 14 Dex Rogue as I want to squeeze every bit of stealth out the PC just to get by.

I think a set of reverse Trackless Step/Natural Senses bonuses could be a strong way to go for both Bards and Rogues to represent the fact they are the "street smart" character archetypes. More Hide/Move Silent/Listen/Search  in non-wilderness areas. For monks, since you have Stances, it makes sense to put a Stelth specialism there and say it exists, so people know they can pick that for a stealth focused Monk if that's a concept they want to play.

If you wanted to strongly differentiate a Rogue/Bard stealth upgrade from Ranger and Druid camo spells, you could script something like a "/c distract" command that gives you increased Speed in Stealth Mode and a temporary Stealth bonus for 1-2 Turns on a short cooldown. Put it in at 4-5 class levels. So whereas a Ranger is good at stalking prey and a Monk might sit in Sneaky Stance, a Rogue or Bard can get in, do the thing and get out while nobody is looking in their direction. Which is what you want to get in and disable a trap, sneak past a sentry, or pick a pocket. It would give a strong opportunist feel to the classes.