Strip spells upon starting gladiator fights

[Pandip]

It seems unintended for fighter types to pay wizards and clerics to buff them to high hell in front of their potential competitors before running in and making a complete mockery of all of them with haste, flame weapon, II, and stoneskin. It is oddly acknowledged IC as being a "challenge" not to fight gladiators fully buffed by an outside source, making the process feel incredibly gamey. I rarely, if ever, see people do gladiator bouts without gaming the system in this way.

I'd suggest keeping everything the same (including the allowed time for drinking potions / casting spells after entering the arena) but strip characters of all spells after they agree to a match.

[wundyboy]

I would be inclined to agree with this, but having done several of the fights today, the NPCs you face in there 1v1 are extremely powerful and can beat you extremely quickly if you don't have any spells whatsoever. I  think it's fine as it is, because even with spells, you still don't have a 100% chance to win.

[TheShadow]

I have asked howlando specifically regarding this and he says its fine. Yes, some fights are one sided. But aren't almost all fights, in NWN?

This is as someone who has spent literally over 6k gold in consumables in this arena, in addition to occasionally being buffed by a cleric or wizard.

[Richørd]

The arena is fine as it currently is. I'd just wish for for low level fighters that are basically no-name NPCs. But that's a request for another day.

[Bio]

having buffs already doesnt give you that much of an advantage, other then some super buff guy not beating you to death with aoos while you drink to level it out lol

i'm also not sure what fighter you're seeing ALWAYS using a wizard/cleric

[Pandip]

There is not just just one fighter using a buffbot before their fights. Almost every single person I've seen engage with the system, especially recently, has not done so without the help of someone buffing them before the fights. My PC has made a habit of going and watching the gladiator fights and I can absolutely attest to the fact that pre-buffing with the help of another character trivializes 80% of the content. I have frequently seen clerics and wizards offering buffs in the arena for groats - going so far as to make sendings to do so. Again, the only time I haven't personally seen this is when people are "challenged" IC to not use outside help. Barring gladiators who use dispels or are the most powerful, the fights are over within seconds.

There is no fear of AoOs when you start a match. Once you enter the arena, there is a buffer where you are not attacked until you approach the gladiator. I'm not proposing you not be allowed to use any spells or consumables, but it seems silly that people frequently don't use any for these fights.

If the DMs are fine with it, the DMs are fine with it, but the people responding to this thread seem to either not understand how the gladiator fights actually work or are being disingenuous.

[Random_White_Guy]

That's probably a bit of a harsher claim than what needs to be thrown, Fitz.

it's not a matter of disingenuous but a matter of measuring the content and contest. You could go the opposite way and say 80% of the content is trivialized by PCs who are not gladiator RPers showing up to prize fight for a bit of coin or prestige. The additional content is useful in the off hours when people are otherwise unable to find quest crews or are looking for something different to do besides grind quests, or otherwise a dozen claims that can be made.

As probably the first person to advertise raising buffs in exchange for groats it's not a matter of being disingenuous. To me i'd rather make 250 gold interacting with PCs about the gladiator fights than "HEY WIZARD I NEED THREE POTIONS OF BLUR HERE'S THE SUM OF THE MARKET STANDARD 80 GROAT THAT ALL PCS PAY FOR THIS DESPITE ME HAVING NO SPELLCRAFT OR APPRAISE, ENJOY YOUR SCRAPS AND GET MY BREWS".

Involving more PCs isn't always a bad thing and even and I can tell you first hand even the non-dispelling NPCs are still brutal. Buffs makes people cocky, and that can be ended by a well placed crit just like any EFU encounter. Will a buffed up gladiator win a few fights? Absolutely. But like all gambling - more often than not the House always Wins.

I think you're maybe putting a bit too much emphasis on the "perceptions" of the NPCs "Watching it happen". Maybe they have a good laugh at the pathetic fools so afraid of their talents they must spend their prize winnings on wizards and clerics.

It's no different in my mind than PCs going to the NPCs in the Open Door Sorcerors or asking wizards and clerics for Pre-Quest buffs of Stoneskin and etc before smashing some 2-6 quests.

[Richørd]

...but the people responding to this thread seem to either not understand how the gladiator fights actually work or are being disingenuous.

Please do not call the entirety of everyone that has a different opinion uninformed or liars. That's a very bad way of doing any argument.

That aside I will make an adendum to my previous post.
Self-buffing before the fight should not be reprimanded. Not at all. A lot of the arena fighters are overstat'd and have some pretty unfair stuff in their arsenal if you fight them for the first time or do not metagame and come unprepared for their very specific strength (looking at you there, Mirror Knight).

In the end though I'd say that there's a certain nuance one should adhere to when going into the arena. It's partially simple and common sense.
If you were an arena fighter would you ever agree to a fight where you see a lad literally paying a sorcerer off to pump him full of magical wards right in front of you? I certainly wouldn't ever accept such a fight if fighting was my main profession.
There are many reasons for this. Fairness, pride, the fact that they're also risking to loose their card and groats.

Perhaps a script could be introduced that gets rid of any and all wards upon entering and make ALL NPC fighters non-hostile until approached? Some fighters I fought against on Sean Gorick had no downtime, they were instantly hostile and charged at my character.
Otherwise DMs could just tune in when they catch wind of a cleric or sorcerer looking to make a quick buck down there and simply have the NPCs react appropriately.

Though they already do so. Like that one time when Gorick was wasting a bunch of ressources because of being underleveled. Kudos to whoever took over the Tiger's Flame that day.



EDIT AS I DID NOT WANT TO TAKE UP TOO MUCH SPACE WITH ANOTHER POST :

The current state of things also makes the arena mostly a game optimized for pure BAB classes, which is a bit of a shame.

I have seen sorcerers and wizards, pure casters, be brutally efficient in the arena. A hasted mage took care of some of the toughest battles in the arena at an incredible pace while I watched him. All he needed was a quick rest inbetween some of those fights. My character, level 8 back then, would not have been able to do so. (which also does not mean too much as he's terribly unoptimized for 1 on 1 battles)

[Pandip]

"Disingenuous" was probably too harsh a word to use, but the anecdotes here seem directly opposite my experiences. My intent was to just bring attention to something that might be unintended or exploitative, to the detriment of the risk/reward nature of a cool new system.

I think you're maybe putting a bit too much emphasis on the "perceptions" of the NPCs "Watching it happen". Maybe they have a good laugh at the pathetic fools so afraid of their talents they must spend their prize winnings on wizards and clerics.

This is a pretty good representation of the crux of my issue, I suppose. The current state of things also makes the arena mostly a game optimized for pure BAB classes, which is a bit of a shame. A cleric's access to darkfire and magic vestment or a wizard's access to stoneskin and II should be what makes their take on being a gladiator unique rather than those things being a mainstay for any full BAB, high HP class competing in the arena.

[TheShadow]

EDIT: For the record, I do believe in not abusing the AI, but I also believe that if the DM's have an issue with what is happening, they can and will take steps to resolve it. From animating the NPC's and making the fight much harder, to buffing the npc's, or however they desire.

This may be hard to understand, and I don't want this to sound incriminating or blaming of you at all ( I'm trying to convey an idea, not sure how to actually say it) but here goes:

This issue already exists and is core to NWN as a whole. In fact, it's a huge aspect of the balance of the game, and the total lack of balance level 11+.

We've seen this issue play out in multiple examples over the years, and it boils down to an opportunity cost. A full ab fighter with the exact same spells as a hybrid class is always going to be stronger, purely mechanically, before any skill such as item usage (dispelling) and otherwise comes into play.

Recently, this has shown itself in fights such as the Dispensary , and duels for the mantle of Inquisitor. The person with more buffs active when they fight generally win in a way that can be called "One sided". Hence the meta of showing up late, fully buffed, to destroy any remaining competition before those buffs fall off, and the response of giving out runes periodically prior to the gifts dropping, to try to even out the disparity.

Another example, recently as the beginning of the chapter, was Hervis Cross, Hound's cleric. In a period where supply was relatively low (I'm looking at using medicine bags and cure minor wounds as primary healing), he fucking dominated due to his access of spells such as Barkskin and Dispel more readily than any of his opponents.


This is an issue with NWN, and how it works.

For the record, we've tried what you're suggesting - Removing all spells prior to the fight, to make it even. But it's not, even.

At all.

Case in point: RSD's. We tried making a subclass that basically did not have access to magical supplies, outside a few gimics, their gear, and their base stats being affected by brews.

It was hated, by anyone trying to fight those RSD's.

Why?

Opportunity cost. To fight an RSD, without access to someone pre-buffing you and smashing the fight (as they couldn't heal very much or use magic of their own), you had to dump THOUSANDS of gold to even /try/ to fight. And it wasin't guaranteed success, and the RSD could just come back 5 minutes later just as strong.

The thing is, these NPC gladiators are NOT rsd's. They're MASSIVELY strong in and of themselves, without magic. And they /have/ magic. They can heal, haste, blur and everything. They can dispel, cast magic, etc etc. They have gimmics, they have gear, they have (in some cases) absurd abilities.

So... What you're suggesting, is putting anyone 1v1 against a RSD with magic.

And I do not want that, ever. I believe the system works fine, as is, and I love it.

If you can think of a solution to the BASE issue of NWN mechanics, please, do. I want to see it, because that is why I don't fight in dispensaries - It costs more for me than the other guy, and the other guy can come back stronger / better / faster than me.

[SunrypeSlim]

How about a script that checks out a PC's buffs before the fight starts, during the conversation with the gladiator?

If the gladiator is of a sort that would be COMPLETELY overpowered by a buff, he'll request you remove it before the fight.

The lower level gladiators would have an extra line of dialogue, where they say: "Okay, but before we start, can you remove Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, and Minor Globe of Invulnerability, just to keep things sporting?" And if you agree, it would strip those on entry, leaving the other buffs (Bull's Strength, etc.) up.

Obviously, other gladiators wouldn't care.

Or scale gladiator's buffs based on the PC's buffs, so the disparity is not so great in certain cases.

-

This is from someone who hasn't tried it yet. I haven't done Gladiator fights for IC reasons but I will on a future PC.

[Loops]

I'd suggest a small interaction that checks your buffs before a fight. If you have them, the other gladiator pays an ice-cream sorcerer to give them the same buffs.

:)

[Howlando]

I go back and forth on this issue and how to balance it appropriately but I definitely strongly hate seeing how many players are approaching the challenges by just getting huge buffs and rolling over all of the gladiators in quick succession with basically completely meaningless fights.

[I love cats]

I can say on my last character I was a dishonorable scumbag definitely buffed before the fights. However he did not just limit this to conflicts with NPCS. He would do so in challenges against PCS as well while making wagers. This idea that its sociable acceptable in the Peerage against NPCS is absurd or that anyone who cheats would do spells like Stoneskin, II, and Flame weapon (Spells no PCS would enter into a fight with.)  That PCS will do this against NPCS and not other PCS to me shows what is absurd/wrong with this sytem and even IG character development.

I also think that certain PCS in the Peerage need to restore honor where are the retainers that stand for honor that are against people cheating before fights? Or better yet people who see an excuse to go against a rival retainer by calling them out on their dishonor of the duel?  Or better yet why are certain noble houses letting Ticker Square people come in enspelled and make a joke of honorable duels? Plenty of IG excuses for conflict with this set up  instead its "Oh the arena is like questing and its just a dumb NPC." 

Or DMS are free to make this  an IG solution with NPCS in their ward and have Ser Nicholas and other important Peerage NPCS go to the arena, find PCS cheating and utterly curbstomp/penalize them. Make higher ups in the Peerage Houses discourage this behavior. Have the Reeve show up and chew out Sunpurse's retainers who do this, have Kristoff or Capo show up and be like "Who cheats with stoneskin and a flame weapon!?" Have Ser Nicholas show up and be disgusted with the dishonor of his house. Maybe even Nephezar, and Glitt can do similar?       

Point is there is a load of tools available to combat this kind of lame/whack behavior from both the PC side and the DM side.

[Anonymous Lemur]

I go back and forth on this issue and how to balance it appropriately but I definitely strongly hate seeing how many players are approaching the challenges by just getting huge buffs and rolling over all of the gladiators in quick succession with basically completely meaningless fights.

You could try categorizing the gladiators into those who allow prior enspellment and those who do not. That way the weaker gladiators are less trivialized and the stronger ones aren't going to immediately place their opponents on the back foot with their huge ab/spells/abilities.

Then simply strip spells upon challenging opponents in the no enspellment category.