Thoughts about PFA Spell Change

[One_With_Nature]

Few points about the changes to PFA spell:

- I actually am in favour of the change but only if there is a balance in the game world with the later part of my suggestions.
- This change makes casters quite a bit stronger, particularly wizards who were already the strongest class in the game. (anyone who says otherwise is just wrong)
- The changes favour "power builds" and particularly multi-class builds that benefit from very high will saves
- Low will save characters are at a great disadvantage as a lot of enchantment spells may as well be will save vs death. Certainly in PvP if you fail a save to something that is paralyzed for 1 round/level you are probably going down.

So I have a couple of suggestions to try and balance this so survival doesn't necessarily become about "Making the strongest build":
1. Have PFA grant a substantially stronger bonus to a) pure classes b) classes that do not have will as a primary save progression (Rogues / Barbarians etc..)
2. Either include a lot more loot in the game world that can boost the Will (or mind affecting saves) saves of Pure Classes (again particularly the non-will saves classes) Maybe even just add a bonus to certain equipment that grands an additional x + mind saves if you are pure class.
3. As no. 2 except do it for all classes and change it so when you multiclass, you do not gain the +will/fort/reflex from the 2nd/3rd class youlevel up in and just follows your first class taken saves progression. (maybe a bit extreme but would def balance things)

[Anonymous Lemur]

At level 6 the bonus from protection from alignment is +9 vs mind spells and an additional +2 universal saves vs alignment. If your character is so min maxed that this is not enough to save against a high dc caster then having to invest the extra gold for clarity potion is a small concession.

Also the spell still protects against phk and weird.

[One_With_Nature]

That's only for caster classes, most of which have will as a primary save, given that character are heavily reliant on potions in this setting, that means +7vs mind. Given that most spells flung at you are going to be DC:18/19+ minimum that's a pretty big chance of a simple spell killing you for not building to accommodate for these changes. I agree that having to invest more in clarity for complete immunity is a great idea, but I'm talking about closing the gap on classes that already are at a disadvantage to a lot of other classes even more so with this change.

Its mostly just- Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogues that get the biggest hit. Most of which, by way of perks have already been identified as needed a helping hand with a bit more diversity.

[Sem]

Protection from Alignment stacks with the other iterations of itself. Chaos,Evil,Law,Good,Neutral. The cost of five of those potions for a pvp is less than a brewed clarity and gives you a flat +14 vs mind affecting and +4 uni saves against everything. +18 if it they're casted by a level 6 Caster. It's fine. If you want total immunity to a mind spell then stock up on clarity. These spells are designed to be stacked against specific alignments and when you do that it more than gives you a fighting chance against them.

And on classes; Barbarians get +2 will from raging, most level 8 rogue perks give will saves or bonuses versus mind affecting to begin with. Besides them, there's plenty of loot in the module that gives +will or +mind affecting for rangers and fighters to use.

[Anonymous Lemur]

That's only for caster classes, most of which have will as a primary save, given that character are heavily reliant on potions in this setting, that means +7vs mind. Given that most spells flung at you are going to be DC:18/19+ minimum that's a pretty big chance of a simple spell killing you for not building to accommodate for these changes. I agree that having to invest more in clarity for complete immunity is a great idea, but I'm talking about closing the gap on classes that already are at a disadvantage to a lot of other classes even more so with this change.

Its mostly just- Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogues that get the biggest hit. Most of which, by way of perks have already been identified as needed a helping hand with a bit more diversity.

Barbarians have amazing saving throws with the right furor and by default gain +2 will +2 fort at a minimum while raging. So they don't really need this.

Rogues have a plethora of perks that provide them with immense advantages in the situations they choose to specialize. Among them are several perks which boost will saves as well as ab. One even allows them to use charges of wands without expending them.

Rangers have spells, favoured enemy ab bonus, favoured enemy perks, full bab, animal companions and again can specialize in having an extremely high will save if they so choose or just bring a clarity potion.

Even before this change was a thing the default means of dealing with mindspells in pvp was to drink a clarity potion. Same for whenever a big boss mage reared its ugly head.

The protection from alignment nerf was targeted at the classes you listed in order to increase the value of focusing less on pure damage and more on saving throws or be forced to spend more gold on clarity potions rather than 30 gold protection from alignments. Prior to this change enchantment was largely regarded as trash and honestly, it still sort of is, but you can at least reliably force the use of more expensive potions with it now. Rather than your entire class being countered by a single level 1 spell.

Also just to put this into perspective lets take the worst case example.

A human rogue with 8 wisdom at level 8, naked with no +1 will gear (which is very common, including gear with +1 will and hide/move silent). The will save would be 1 + 7 vs mind spells +2 universal (as is standard for pfa), which puts them up to 10 will. To be even more generous to the caster lets say pfa is bugged and isn't giving +2 uni saves vs alignment. So his will is 8.

Now lets say the enchanter is min-maxed entirely for casting hold person. GSF enchantment level 8 22 cha mesmerizer perk sorcerer. They cast hold person and their dc is going to be 23-25 depending on if he has eagles splendour.

Meaning the rogue who did not invest at all into will and dumped the stat will have to roll a 15+ or a 17+ on a d20 to save. Which is a 15-25% chance against someone who focused entirely upon exploiting that weakness. Also the rogue could just drink a clarity potion and negate the spell entirely while its still in the air.  If said rogue had taken 10 or 12 wisdom he'd need a 14 or a 16 to save, if he also wore a +1 will amulet he'd need a 13 or 15 to save. With one of the +1 ab +2 will save perks that decreases even further. All against someone who min maxed to absolutely crush with mind spells. Which again are mitigated completely by clarity.

I'm really just not seeing what the issue is with this... even the most minor of investment significantly increases your chances against someone who invests enormous amounts to the detriment of other areas.

[Grouch]

If anything I feel PF alignment is still too good. +2 uni saves vs alignment from PFA  is too good when you can stack it up with itself for +4 making true neutral still reign supreme in the alignment block.

I would say remove PF Law and Chaos from the server or remove the +2 universal save attached to the spell.

[bobofwestoregonusa]

I've honestly never failed a will save with PfA up but only because I have iron will and strong soul and spellcraft and dwarf saves. Any other build might just get trashed all the time if any caster cranks their DCs up and then foxes or eagles themselves. This is more of a concern for pvp than pve but it makes pve life a lot more difficult for people who don't want to disgustingly powerbuild like I did and never fail will saves.