Suggestion: Parry alterations - Bonus to Deflection AC

[TsunamiWombat]

Now, this may (probably) be impossible due to hard coding, but it's a thought that came up on the Discord so i'm going to suggest it here, and defend the idea as if it were possible. Who knows, maybe it is since it doesn't directly affect how parry itself functions.


I believe the parry skill, which everyone knows barring one or two exceptions (WWinds Capricious' duelist in EfU:M ex) is fairly useless. It's not broken, but it doesn't work exactly either. The only way to get anything out of it is to devote your character to it fully, to the exclusion of all other strategies, and to dual wield. This isn't something we can change, unfortunately.


What I propose is that parry correspond to a bonus to deflection AC in the same manner that tumble does to dodge ac. That is, every 5 base give +1 deflection AC, provided your modified parry is higher than that base. So 5 parry base would give you +1 deflection ac at lvl 2, 10 would give you +2 at lvl 7, and 15 would give you +3 at level 12 (hah).


This would encourage new builds and make the skill, which is meant to represent skill at arms, much more viable for martially inclined PC's. It also would not be very powerful, as deflection AC (unlike dodge) DOES NOT STACK. Which means that +1 at lvl 2 is the same as having a +1 ring and the two won't stack. All it really means is characters investing in parry as a class skill would get +2 deflection at lvl 7. This would NOT stack with the base deflection AC from Shield of Faith OR Shield potions, nor the deflection bonuses on magic rings. For those characters without parry, magic rings are quite common, as are SoF pots.


In essence, all you would really see is a rise in unbuffed AC by +1 at level 7 across a majority of PC's, as magic +1 rings are moderately easy to come by, and their effects would not stack with the parry bonus.

[Mia]

Seems like a sneaky way to buff Red Star Disciples to me. And they really don't need it.

[Stranger]

Red Star Defiants already have access to +1 Deflection AC. I'm not too worried about them getting one more point.

I'd gladly see Parry become an option to seriously invest into. Why stop at base ranks? Skills are relatively tight overall as things stand. And it usually takes feats to get the really high Parry scores. And not just suffice it at base ranks. Why not make it a total of +1 Deflection AC per 10 ranks of modified Parry? With the normal upper limit of +4 for 40, equivalent to a Shield potion. Truly extreme cases could indeed get +5 from a rank of 50, but I think someone willing to go that far can have it.

Fighters, Barbarians, and Monks stand to gain the most, and are consistently considered to be disadvantaged in the supply theory because they cannot use wands.

Rogues, Sorcerers, Wizards, and Bards have access to Shield anyway.

If Paladins, Druids, and Clerics want to invest their already limited, insufficient skill points in this, they can be my guest.

[Hollow_Mage]

I didn't like this yesterday; I really like it today. Suggestion guidelines advise us that we can even make suggestions that are 'self-serving', so I don't agree it's 'sneaky'. I do however really like the word 'sneaky'.

Ascetics and RSDs could really use this, just as it was suggested. But here's a question: Could it be Shield AC instead of Deflection AC?

If a character has no equipment in their off-hand, then give them +1 Shield AC for every 5 points in Parry. It is what you are doing with your free hand. There are a ton of martial and weapon techniques based on having a free, open, or empty hand, and right now there is only one mechanical advantage to doing so: Deflect Arrows. That requires either Monk levels or two combat feats.

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For sake of discussion: Parry mode takes into account the number of attacks per round you have access to across all three flurries, and removes 1 of your attacks for each successful Parry AND Riposte. Therefore, you will spend 2 of your attacks in a round if you Parry well, leaving yourself open to regular attacks without recourse.

   
• Best case scenario: You have more than 7 BAB, dual-wielding Kamas, with Improved Two Weapon Fighting, hasted, and at least 1 level of Monk. | 6 Attacks Per Round (APR)
• Common scenario: You have 6 BAB, dual-wielding rapier and dagger, and you're hasted. | 4 APR
• Worst case scenario: You have less than 6 BAB, dual-wielding. | 2 APR

The attack bonus of a successful Riposte is based on which attack in your flurry is being used to Riposte, not which attack was used up on the successful Parry. In other words: If your last attack in the round is with an off-hand weapon and you don't have Ambidexterity, you may Parry very well but your Riposte AB will be crappy. It is difficult to predict or force a result unless you are watching the combat log the entire time.
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The common scenario, sitting with 4 APR while Hasted, is a reasonable baseline. Compared to, say, a Barbarian with a Greataxe, who has 3 APR at equal level and conditions, you have enough to Parry every attack or Parry AND Riposte 2 of the Barb's 3 attacks. If a Barbarian uses, say, Knockdown, that's an additional -4 to his Attack, or to put it another way: Knockdown gives +4 Parry to the opponent. In this kind of 1v1, a Parrier should have a slight advantage over time.



Same scenario, sitting with 3 APR while Hasted, using a single weapon and nothing in the off-hand. You lose your advantage in 1v1 combat, but gain: Shield AC against every attack; open hand for Deflect Arrows (if you qualify); and massive style points for looking like Kirito. The most important difference, however, is that you are using your weapon to Attack, not to Parry, which makes you more proactive overall in the fight. In spite of your Parry investment, you are only achieving what you would have achieved carrying a Medium Shield.


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In conclusion: Not an OP suggestion, but a very interesting one, and a good baseline suggestion for changes to Parry. I personally love this skill and would love to see more people using it. If my caster ever dies, you'd better believe I'm making a Parrymaster.

[TsunamiWombat]

I feel as though shield ac may be a bit much as a shield is literally a solid wall of something, even considering fantastical speeds being able to parry arrows is a bit crazy. Monks get that as a feat


Also making it shield ac would make it stack with a lot of spells like Shield. Those combinations would become potentially OP

[Pup]

Shield makes way more sense.   If a shield bonus is added to this I don't see a mechanical advantage problem.  Especially if it is only added if a shield is not used.  And especially since shield bonuses do not stack.  I like the addition of shield AC for parry points, but limit it like Tumble.  At best it will be like a large shield unless you get epic levels.  Even then you are still better off with an easily attainable magic shield.  As long as it requires one-handed weapons and no shield I could see this being a viable and fun addition.

And especially.

[Listener]

I don't want to be that guy, but can it be done? Yes, a similar system is already implemented on another server which has traditionally never used haks (Arelith) - granted theirs is a +AB/dmg system rather than a +AC system.


As for whether it should be, I don't know, I think /something/ should be done. It'd be nice. I've brought up parry before and been educated with anecdotal claims that parry is still useful because it was used to amazing effect in this or that isolated incident when that one PC from way before with presumably a mega-high level of it - far exceeding what one could get with an investment in ranks and feats - managed to fight off this or that big monster.
Anyone who has run the numbers knows that even a very very high parry level won't generally save you. The best scenario is one on one, of course - it's a dueling skill after all - but due to various factors the best odds you're going to get with it are 'risky' odds.
I've certainly eaten enough crits out of nowhere trying to make my old ~35 parry, semi-permanent 25 DEX duel wielding hin RSD work, lol. And when his ripostes succeeded he averaged about 3 damage. My mistake on that front.


The skill just isn't good as is. Barring a godly level of investment which I wish wasn't necessary, it will continue to be not good unless something is done. :(

[TsunamiWombat]

I don't want to be that guy, but can it be done? Yes, a similar system is already implemented on another server which has traditionally never used haks (Arelith) - granted theirs is a +AB/dmg system rather than a +AC system.

Bonus AB/Damage for parry? Well it's good to know it can be done, even if that doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Listener]

Well, to clarify the bonuses activated only while in parry mode. So I suppose it was designed to compensate somewhat for the fact that your riposte rate is going to be much slower than a normal attack rate.
So if anything, not only can it be done but it can be made to activate only while in parry mode.

[Bacon_Cheese_Burger]

God no!
We dont need fighters with even more ac.

[TsunamiWombat]

God no!
We dont need fighters with even more ac.

Again, if you do the calculation, it would only result in a net increase of 1 ac at lvl 7 with investment in the skill. And apparently it is possible to tie this modifiers to being in parry mode itself, meaning they would have to be fighting defensively. Because it is a fighting mode I do not think it would be useable with Expertise either

[Hollow_Mage]

Well it's certainly not okay to deactivate the actual function of Parry and replace it with this. If that's what the suggestion is I'm 100% against it. I thought this was just about doing Tumble with a different skill so it's finally useful.

[Bacon_Cheese_Burger]

+1 ac here and +1 ac there. It adds up.