Relic Guardian suggestions

[Pandip]

The common perception in #efu is that Relic Guardians are cool in concept but poor in execution.

1) Most of the relics are extremely specific to certain builds or concepts and require meta knowledge before making a character in order to be used. This makes it so that you have to have OOC knowledge of loot tables and tailor your build to suit one in order to make a better use of the good relics instead of rolling up a concept and playing a character, which is obviously not an ideal situation.
2) A lot of the relics are considered outright bad or too exclusive, which potentially pollutes loot tables with bad items that only a very small portion of the population can even use.
3) Not having access to level 5 spells with relics, even on a generic and not especially powerful relic, isn't possible without a DM giving you or designing you one.
4) Level restrictions feel arbitrary

I think that sums up the largely perceived issues. Discuss changes, fixes, and suggestions.
 

[bobofwestoregonusa]

As someone who is maining the class right now, I've got to admit it was pretty disappointing to do the reliquary at level 7 and come out with a level 3 relic since I had two more of those already. Maybe improving drops in the reliquary to guarantee a leveled relic for the player doing the hunting capped to level 4 would be nice. I didn't actually know level 5 relics didn't exist, and I had even heard of someone finding a level 6 relic at some point but that might have been a misunderstanding of how the system works. The variety of relics makes it very difficult to find something you can use unless people hoard them. The problem is most relic guardians want relics that they can sacrifice for experience points so the most likely fate of any relic that the currently active relic guardian can't use is to become xp. This could be helped by making domains associated more broadly and allowing other people to use relics associated with domains close to theirs but I don't know how that would necessarily work in terms of balance. Exceptionally strong relics for specific domains could be listed as something like "DOMAIN X ONLY - NO EXCEPTIONS" as well to allow for the highly specialized loot of much higher level characters.

[zDark Shadowz]

Relics that can be upgraded maybe, a special one for each domain? Relics are an interesting alternative for clerics, but I think they need a cost more so than a restriction for their use.

Is it possible to alter them, or create some, that instead of restricting spell levels etc, when bound and after rest they remove spells (from left side) set to the cleric spellbook in certain spell levels to represent binding to the relic taking up X amount of spells as its cost for offering its own abilities in exchange?

There's already scripts in place for altering wizard spellbook selections so I'm wondering if that could be modified somehow to apply this spell removal effect to a relic guardian cleric spellbook, in place of having specific level restrictions.

[Diz-e]

Sorry, but I disagree with these 'common perceptions', and maybe we are looking past some of the most awesome elements of the Relic Guardian, and the reasons why they have limitations - most prominently that they can freely combine all sorts of impressive domain combinations, even if within the requirements of the entirely acceptable, common sense primary/secondary lists, AND the player can conjure up whatever awesome concept they like to justify it, while taking free reign in the deity field.

The Relic Guardian is a unique opportunity to get creative and embark upon a real adventure with your character development! If you aren't finding a relic to suit you, keep looking! Give it a chance; make it your quest (which is sort of the point)! You will find one that works, and where it leads it may surprise and excite you.

I'd like to speak on the 4 points submitted above:

1) You can't really say "most" of the relics are specific to certain builds or concepts because I'd wager none of us have seen the greater majority of the relics IG. Even so, I know for a fact there are certainly plenty of generic relics suitable for any who can make use of their related Type: the designation of which domains you must have access to, in order to attune to the relic. And basically that's all you need:  that the Type applies to one of your (TWO) domains, you have enough cleric levels to attune to it, and it allows you to pray for spells up to a certain spell level. Whoa, hold on now- it has extra powers too? And shit, it's also a magic item with some perks and/or stat bonuses? How is this bad again? Like I said, maybe the relics you find can actually guide your character development, but if it's not for you, seek out another one that is! They are out there.

Admittedly, there may be a few relics that seem rather limited in application, but those are mostly the higher tier, flavorful deity-related, or especially power-loaded items, so that is acceptable IMHO. There are only a scant couple of relics I've seen that I personally didn't agree with overall, but you have to remember that the idea is to balance several factors of each relic's power- including the spell level granted, the general power of the associated domains under the relic's Type designation, AND the additional spell uses per day/stat bonuses/perks/goodies. If you'd like to assist the DM team with ideas for balanced relics, I suggest heading over to the thread started for submitting those ideas, after you have a good idea of how they work.

2) In nearly all situations where these drop on quests, they spawn in their own separate, relic-only placeables. Thus, no need to worry! They aren't taking up the space of your other precious loot.

3) Again, just because you haven't seen a relic with access to spell level 5 does not mean you won't get one. And should it be the sort of thing you'd expect to find only by way of a DM, I think that's a good thing. Honestly, a more powerful relic that grants the godly ability to raise the dead, or take a life outright, without the hand of an actual god? Seems legit if those are pretty rare, and there's nothing wrong with earning it by doing what any good cleric should be doing anyway, which is gathering faithful alongside them, preaching their faith/creed/religion/whatever, and having a presence by the time they are level 9, for gods' sakes! Clerics are already one of the stronger, more self-sufficient classes in the game, and the idea (of balancing, noted above) is that some relics which deny you a higher spell level come with appropriate perks to rectify that, and vice-versa.

4) I think it is pretty clear that the level restrictions are there as one of the balance factors in overall relic power, but more notably to limit the potential for multiclass powerbuilds intended to merely be able to equip the more powerful relics and benefit from the perks and stat bonuses (by for example, taking 1 cleric level so you can use that awesome staff with your fighter AB, or whatever).

I'd like to address this comment as well:

The variety of relics makes it very difficult to find something you can use unless people hoard them. The problem is most relic guardians want relics that they can sacrifice for experience points so the most likely fate of any relic that the currently active relic guardian can't use is to become xp. This could be helped by making domains associated more broadly and allowing other people to use relics associated with domains close to theirs but I don't know how that would necessarily work in terms of balance. Exceptionally strong relics for specific domains could be listed as something like "DOMAIN X ONLY - NO EXCEPTIONS" as well to allow for the highly specialized loot of much higher level characters.

It is already the case that related domains are all acceptable under the relic's Type affiliation, such as Type: Death covering both the Death and Undeath domains. There are also many relics that have 2 Types, so potentially covering as many as 4 or 5 domains. See the table in the Relic Guardian Intro thread. I know, for me at least, that wasn't immediately clear, and it was a real revelation when it finally dawned on me.
 

[Tala]

Relic suggestions are always welcomed, and so are suggestions for balancing. I think the execution is OK (could always use improvements), but maybe the DM's vision does not match the player's vision (which happens a lot and it's fine). #efu tends to be blown out of proportions every now and then, and I heard the same perceptions from people who haven't even tried rolling a Relic Guardian, so a bit problematic to take too much of what is said into account. However, I'll address the issues above. Be aware that I can only address the Relics I made, which are the majority of what can be found in the relic chests quests and explorations (The Reliquary is not mine).

1. While it has been some months since, I don't recall most relics are specific to any kind of build, or really any of them, unless I felt some sort of niche I aimed at here and there. If it's on a concept's level of "this relic is related to this X god", it shouldn't mean it can't fit any other PC that doesn't follow that god if they have the same Type. All in all, it's extremely hard coming up with more than hundred items with flavorful names and descriptions and not use already existing dogmas and faiths. People already have OOC knowledge of the loot tables of quests and already aim their builds knowing "item X from quest Y will close this corner in my build". Actually randomizing the Relics between all quests/explorations prevents from OOC knowledge to be used, so I think that point is fairly well covered.

2. As diz-e:

2) In nearly all situations where these drop on quests, they spawn in their own separate, relic-only placeables. Thus, no need to worry! They aren't taking up the space of your other precious loot.

Only issue with this one was in a few quests the chests spawn backwards and they couldn't be reached (no idea why). I think I fixed it in every quest, but let me know if there are still instances of it happening. Also not sure how it "pollutes" anything as it can be brought as a bounty to the House of Knowledge and receive gold for.

4. Leaving the third point to the end. Sure, it might be felt that way, but there are two things to take in mind: A. Different relics made by different DMs will always be different. B. It's just another way to balance Relics and attributed. There is the max spell level, the minimum level restriction, the skills/feats/item properties, etc. And even if two relics seem identical in power but one has a level restriction of 3 and another of 4, it might as well have been I didn't pay attention, or just forgot what I did before. As I said, there are a lot of relics out there, and there's no way to remember what each and every one is. Rest of the matter is as Diz-e noted, multiclassing issues.

3. I don't believe this will ever be something we'll change. Taking the normal Cleric, it can be really frustrating for DMs (and I'm pretty sure for other players) to see a week old Cleric reaching level 9 and getting 5th circle, and they have done nothing religious/priestly and only quested and just said "Praise X" every now and then. Sure, this can be said about every class, but it's felt the most with Clerics who just don't act like Clerics.
What diz-e wrote is more or less what we've had in mind though.

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For the rest of what's written in the thread:

* Making Relics be used by clerics with "similar" domains - We do have a lot of domains. I wouldn't mind it, but I don't have a good idea regarding what is considered "similar". Almost identical domains were combined as a single relic Type.

* An upgrade system - It was suggested in the past (by me) and even implemented (by me, again), but I scrapped it a month or two before the kit was released. It's just not something that can work so well, and would need constant monitoring/tweaking/nerfing so people can't exploit it and it won't be completed uselss. It would probably transform into the Amulets that were a thing a few years ago, and it's best to stay away from that.

* Remove spells instead of restrict - Sort of like negative spell slot? Not too much into it, and I'm fairly satisfied with the current mechanics.
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One thing I heard every now and then is people would rather avoid concepts/builds that might rely on a DM to get something from, and Relic Guardian might fall in this category (though it can be debatable), and I can relate to that. One thing that can be done is making a container with 2-3 high tier relics for each MAJOR Type Relic and DMs will then have an easier time giving such a reward for successful Relic Guardians. But this might mean they'd rather give something that's ready instead of making something personal for the PC.

Another thing I pondered about lately, is perhaps allowing for a Relic Guardian to hold a Relic of each type at the same time. Personally I think it diminishes the concept a bit (instead of being dedicated to a single relic, you are dedicated to two), but it's not something I'm completely against. I think the way it was scripted might be a bit problematic for such a change, but it's certainly something that can be done.

[bobofwestoregonusa]

Attunement to multiple relics creates the potential for some really over powered relic guardians if not handled carefully. I've seen what some of them can do and the lower spell slot higher level requirement relics would get used a lot more but also be pretty unbalancing because the player could just use their level 4 relic slot as their main relic and then use their over powered loot as their secondary relic.

[Diz-e]

I would like to add- the Reliquary quest is awesome and needs no change. Props to the DM that made that.