Law, Good, and Modern Concepts of them

[TheTurboNerd]

As my primary character is a Paladin I spend a lot of time reflecting on the ethics of various IC decisions and interactions, because I think thats what my character would do. It is, at first glance, almost impossible to rationalize a Paladins code of Law, Good, Mercy, and Honor as we conceive it against a world so dark and grim as EFU's - and this interplay is certainly one of the main features of the class.

But I've also been thinking lately that perhaps I've done my characters a disservice in the past, by applying a blaise modern conception of morality to them, rejecting violence as a last worst resort, trying to forgive everyone, and expecting a strong centralized government to handle things.

For a specific recent example, my character walked in on a Superior officer giving a suspect a beating with a club in an interrogation room. I, and my character, were momentarily stunned and quite reasonably, did not know how to react, before muttering a lame excuse and being off, thinking to myself "now my Paladin has to be guarded and suspicious of that man, and seek ways to bring them to justice". But then I stopped and considered - is beating a prisoner always 'wrong', full stop? If it's not torture, then his beating may be his just punishment under the law (the concept of corporal punishment being one we're not used to in the first world). Perhaps the suspect was evil or had commited some egregious offense, and was deserving of it. Does not my Paladins very god, Torm, have in his dogma "Give traitors swift and painful death"?

This is all rambling a bit, but I'd just like to invite or provoke people into exercising a less modern concept of what is socially and morally acceptable. It can certainly help, if nothing else, with how reprehensible EFU's environment seems sometimes.

[hide="Gary Gygax on Morality in D&D"][/hide]

[Abandoned-1]

I think the Most Numinous Order of the Brethren Votarient would be a perfect example for you to study. To a modern standard, you would be hard pressed to find someone that calls them good. But what they were doing could be considered good, given the circumstances. I guess what we consider good and evil is an ever changing thing. It used to be that killing a witch was considered good. But today, if you go on a modern day (literal) witch hunt, you would probably be considered either mentally ill, or evil by the general populace.

[Dillusionist]

Quoha agrees with Red Judas' sentiment.

[Dillusionist]

I don't think its really works all that well to impose 13th century anglo-saxon morality on D&D, especially pseudo-democratic, steampunk Dunwarren. Even in regular forgotten realms I don't think its quite right to impose medieval social norms any more than it is to impose 21st century social norms. Though it is important to remember the Bresleys were from the Dalelands, which are (were) ruled as a republic and imported many of those customs. I'm sure no one's going to care if you smack an unruly child or rough up a prisoner a bit.

But that's besides the point! Alignment in D&D is absolute, and not relativistic. So it is independent of social norms. Even if was considered perfectly normal, and just, to sever a pickpocket's hand in Mistlocke - an Angel up in Celestia might still cry because it was neither merciful, nor respectful, of an individual's life and dignity. This is a hallmark of what it means to be good in D&D.

Roughing up a prisoner strikes me as something that: (1) IS probably socially acceptable. (2) But if you're party to it, it might tilt you a little toward evil - if its not in the name of protecting innocents.

As for the Numinous Order... as much as I loved that faction, there were -definitely- evil characters in their ranks, including paladins who faltered or fell in their vain attempt to thwart the End. Just ask Quoha.

[TheTurboNerd]

While Gygax's assessment is certainly out of line FR and even our version of FR, and i'm not saying people HAVE to approach their characters a certain way, it bears consideration that maybe our modern perspective of what is respectful or appropriate does not apply in universe.

[Abandoned-1]

http://www.efupw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57151&highlight=racism

The above topic is not related, but the angle being taken is how I view it. EFU seems to have its own moral compass, so I would assume that your assessment of a modern perspective not applying would be right.

[VengefulSeraphim]

I'm with Disillusionist on this, though I should clarify that just because we aren't in medieval times doesn't mean we ought to act like 21st century post-modern people.

For the most part, I think the server's population has handled this distinction rather well, particularly with regards to the present plot going on involving the Workmill. I've not heard people pushing for eight-hour days or calling either side 'dirty communists' or 'capitalist pigs', which is a good sign, IMO.

[Underbard]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.  Beating the evil out of an evil PC is not only the right thing to do, it is your duty.

Seriously, you need to play your Paladin as YOU see fit.  If that means beating a player who desperately needs it, then make it happen.  If that means being lenient, go with that.  I would say it would have to be judged on a case by case basis, with you making the judgement call.

[DangerousDan]

Gary Gygax sounds like a brutal old bastard.

[Meldread]

I wholeheartedly endorse bad ass paladins who try to beat the evil out of evil people.  

"I sense your taint!"  [Bitch slap.]  "Do not try and lie to me, your crimes are laid out before my very eyes for they are painted upon your blackened soul!"  [Grabs him and throws him against the wall.]  "The only reason I do not kill you where you stand, is because I am hunting someone far worse.  I am going to give you one chance to spare your pathetic life.  If you lie to me, I will know it."

DM XP, incoming.

[Inquisitor]

There is a difference between rough-housing (as Meldread demonstrated) and beating a prisoner. If someone is bound or detained, hitting them is a dishonorable trait. Remember- that while LG PCs may be able to get away with some "questionable" things for the sake of law, Paladins go a bit beyond and have taken some oaths that they need to strictly abide by.

I feel playing a Paladin should be one of the hardest PCs to properly play on EFU, and in my past experience, I was only able to play a successful Paladin because he acquired many allies and his personality was more of a negotiator than a crusader.

[Corrigo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

Fascinating subject. Academics have dedicated their lives to it.


Be sure to settle it in this topic once and for all so we can finally lay it to rest.

[Big Orc Man]

With regard to the prisoner beating scenario, I'd say a paladin would think the following -
 
A) is this happening out of sadistic glee, or a desire to enforce existing law, and
 
B) is this reasonable, or excessive to the point of torture?
 
It's definitely a grey area where different paladins may differ.  I don't think any DM is going to be hard on a paladin who simply feels differently in a legitimately grey area like that.
 
After all, paladins do support lawful beheadings or hangings, provided the proper processes are followed and the person being executed truly is a villainous cad.