Paladins, Atonement and Clerics

[MrGrendel]

A while back, we were gonna have greyguards, apparently. I guess that never made it in, but I imagine it would have been an interesting addition for the gritty, ambiguous EfU atmosphere.

One of the features that defines greyguards seems to be the atonement. In PnP, atonement works better for greyguards, giving them more liberty in stepping over traditional paladin bounds.

It's something that's lacking in NWN entirely. So, what about a reduced form of the Atonement spell, along the lines of this. Maybe someone with more experience in playing paladins could give input on whether this might be worthwhile or encourage more greyguard style pallies. [SIZE="1"](Esp. considering I don't know if I'd ever use it, myself <_<)[/SIZE]

Atonement
Abjuration
Level:       Clr 5
Components:    V, S, XP, Prayer beads or equivalent worth 500gp (not consumed)

"This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest or similar penance to be completed in order to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before even casting this spell."

Mechanical effects of spell: (4 subversions existing, similar to PfA - Atonement (Shift to Good), Atonement (Shift to Evil), etc.)

1. Removes 200 xp from cleric.
2. Announces on /DM, "[Cleric Name] of [Deity] wishes to allow [Target Name] of [Deity] to atone."
3. After one minute, summons a "Servant of [Deity]" according to the cleric's deity field.
4. The Servant summon says, "Mortal, explain your foolish deeds to [Cleric Name], I will listen on behalf of [Deity Name]."
5. Assuming no DM is interested and takes over the servant in the meantime, after 5 minutes have elapsed, the servant announces, "Your case does not convince me fully at this time, but your efforts, at least, have been noted."
6. The alignments of the Target of the spell are shifted 2 points according to the spell type. The servant vanishes.

Original version of Atonement here.

[SIZE="1"]Of course, you could also just make it simply remove xp and shift alignment, or keep it so only DMs do it, but I think the above would be neat and more accessible, while making it easy for DMs to police it - even if they don't care to personally jump in for a stronger alignment shift. >_>[/SIZE]

[Barber]

As the player of a fallen cleric, I really, really like this idea!

No matter how attentive any DM is, a PC religious leader who is guiding a subordinates pennance has way more time to watch, judge and order around their disciple.

Pennances take a long time, but I will comment that working a penance and not knowing if the god(dm) is even aware of big sacrafices is really demotivating as a player.  A fallen cleric or paladin working a pennance is a deeply religious person who has one thing on their mind:  attoning in the eyes of their god.  A fallen cleric can never know if a god(dm) ever notices the thing a fallen cleric does, but it gives a feeling of accomplishment and progress to regularly report their deeds to their mentor.

Increase the XP to something more drastic like 1,000 and make an OOC statement, a very clear one that such an activity is an extraordinary occurrnce and if the power is abused, the mentor will catch flack from their god or even fall.

Having a PC able to take on more involvement in the process would be a big motivator for the PC worling a pennance.  A DM could even delegate specific tasks if they want to "see that Bob does X, Y and Z, if he does, you can attone him.  If he screws up, report back to me."

Try it out, see if it works.  If it does, it provides for more meaningful and complicated interaction between divine PCs.  If it does not work, it can always be removed.

[Porkolt]

I'd prefer seeing penance and atonement done through actual RP instead of just casting a spell.

In the given example, actually having a DM come along playing a divine servant of the god in question seems rather silly. After all, the cleric is supposed to be the deity's representative in the first place.

Furthermore, it would seem fitting that if someone gets an alignment shift because of something bad they did, the actual penance should be severe enough to cause their alignment to shift back. Otherwise doing the penance would be rather pointless in the first place.

If you really want an angel to show up to represent the god, get the celestial summoning theme and summon one yourself. There's commands in place to have it say all those nifty things.

[Barber]

The idea was not to simply cast a spell and be done with it, but to do so at the culmination of hard work.

The Brotherhood used the cerlestial summoning theme in a lot of rituals, including every initiation of new members, but right now, no cleric can grant an attonement.

[OrneryBadger]

Greyguards are a terrible idea, and paladins by their very nature should never 'step over the line'. For holy warriors of dubious morality, you have divine champions. This is why there are many dietys who simply do not have or support paladins.

[MrGrendel]

I'd prefer seeing penance and atonement done through actual RP instead of just casting a spell.

Why would I disagree? That's like saying "I'd rather see you roleplay a mage rather than just cast a bunch of mage spells." The two things are not exclusive.

In the given example, actually having a DM come along playing a divine servant of the god in question seems rather silly. After all, the cleric is supposed to be the deity's representative in the first place.

It's a simple device to make it easy and convenient for a DM to participate, object or intervene ICly, as they have been known to do in the past through NPC priests, for instance. It's not without precedent, either. "Servant of Kelemvor," etc.

Greyguards are a terrible idea, and paladins by their very nature should never 'step over the line'.

This suggestion is not for greyguards, but for a weak version of a core spell. Besides that, paladins are by their "very nature" still human.

[Big Orc Man]

Paladins are much more than human.  There's a reason they are so exceedingly rare according to canon.

There is definitely some wiggle room to create different and interesting paladins, but in general, a paladin should NOT exist in the grey area, nor in the grit of the setting.

Paladins are supposed to shine through as holy beacons of goodness.  They're supposed to defy their corrupted surroundings.

[MrGrendel]

"To err is human," which is why paladins are always at risk of falling.

I do agree that paladins should be rare. That's an argument against, though in my opinion not a strong one. (Because I don't think it will effect it that much.) However, I also think you might see paladins acting more proactively and taking more risks.

If the argument is that a paladin who fails once does not deserve to be a paladin again, I'd have to disagree, and DMs have helped paladins trying to redeem themselves. They're not perfect or automatons. This is exactly why the spell exists.

However, DMs are not always at the beck and call of players, and a DM may also not even be interested in guiding an atonement process, even when it's necessary to make a paladin fall and the DM thinks recovery should be possible.

On the other hand, we usually have quite a few people around, clerics, who are most likely more than happy to roleplay a spiritual guide and would be perfect for the role.

The spell would allow DMs if they choose to have players of classes that should be most suited for the role take over the recovery, fully supported by the mechanics. Keep in mind, it would still be impractical for any large shifts. There are still options like character spell failure that need a DM.

In other words paladin morality will not change unless DMs ease up on penalties, especially if in the light of this spell DMs were encouraged to give out more frequent, small alignment shifts. No, it simply gives DMs an alternative when they feel the recovery can be managed without them, and gives clerics a little more to do.

[MrGrendel]

[SIZE="1"]Truthfully, I'd rather see something that had to do with numbers of worshipers or converting to the patron deity of the cleric. >_>

Edit: And if we're talking coding, have EFUSS skills fixed even before that.[/SIZE]

[Dr Dragon]

The greyguard Prestige class was given was a terrible pretige class concept that simply allowed paladins to violate their oaths in the name of "The greater good" While still being able to keep their paladin powers as a way of "promoting fairness" Because evil PCS had the upper hand of not having the moral restraint of paladins.

The Atonement spell is a terrible idea and was almost always performed by an NPC in PNP. Really clerics would just keep attoning their paladin friends whom break their oaths/deity tenents to "Fight evil."

[OrneryBadger]

What I can agree with here is the SENTIMENT of making dieties and clerics more than just spell dispensing devices, which is what I think this is.

[MrGrendel]

Right, Badger, a spiritual guide is exactly what a priest is supposed to be. A DM may not even want to oversee the penance. Your average cleric player would probably enjoy that sort of interaction. Any paladin the DM didn't trust with this, or any cleric who isn't using this right can be hit with flat out spell failure, and the way it is suggested, policing should be easy.

Of course it's likely not worth it just for the occasional fallen paladin, anyway, in terms of how often it would see use vs having to script it. Maybe if alignment shifts were more common in general.

But yes, if I was just trying to suggest some zomgawesome spells for clerics, it would be more along the lines of using Plane Shift to become an undetectable spy, aka visiting the ethereal plane, or to travel with groups far more quickly through a smaller shadow plane version of Ymph, etc, though I guess the latter two would be too difficult to code accurately. Oh, not to mention sending someone involuntarily to a nasty plane. Or scripted questions with Commune esp. in lieu of things like sense motive, detect alignment, etc.