Balance Fire Elemental AB and Damage

[Brimstone Sermon]

So, I've been using these a while, after my last summoner had the Snake theme. Unfortunately, they're pretty awful. Comparing L1 and 2 of both, the serpents have over double the AB of the Elementals (10-11 including Size bonuses), similar immunities to Mind Spells and sneaks, similar HP, Poison (I think) and bonus elemental damage. Low Strength, but that's Ok as they can still hit even high level foes. That's checking off the combat log by the way, I know not to trust the character sheet of a summon.

Yes, Fire Elementals' damage is pretty nice what with base, strength bonus and Fire damage, but that's not much good if they can't hit a barn door. They don't even have good AC, bolts, stacking ability or Concealment like other Elementals.

They'd be decent though if they had lower damage but higher AB instead.  Right now, they're useless in PVP or against any sort of tough enemy as they simply can't hit them short of criticals. Strangely, Summoned Fire Elementals have Weapon Finesse, although their Dexterity and Strength scores are the same. Drop Strength, boost Dexterity and they'll see more use. It wouldn't make them more powerful as the average damage would stay about the same versus things they can hit. It would make them more useful as they wouldn't rapidly be outclassed in AB by most mobs and PCs.

[Relinquish]

Always thought it would be cool to give them a small fire damage shield, whether it's scripted or X/day casting of low level elemental shield.

[Nihm]

Air and water elementals seem much weaker than all other summon families.  Along with fire, they need some boosts I think - but let's not forget one significant advantage, which is the fire immunity.

[Spiffy Has]

They were reduced for a reason. They were to powerful to begin with. Summon themes are not equal.

[Valo56]

Air is the strongest elemental theme, stronger than celestials, even. Fire is the weakest, lacking the DR, AB, HP and AC the others have, and having only slightly higher damage.

They use Power Attack, too, which does them no favors. Or at least, they did last time I used them. Very annoying.

I don't expect all themes to be equal. Some should be stronger than others. The elemental themes, though, I feel should be somewhat even, for obvious reasons. A damage shield for fire seems the perfect thing to give it.

[derfo]

The summoning themes are well balanced when desired. Not every type has as big numbers as the next, but there are actually benefits that aren't immediately apparent or exist to be found out and taken advantage of.

[Brimstone Sermon]

Thomas:
No, but themes that are restricted to perks, domains, being a conjurer etc should be the more powerful ones. Air and water eles can stack on top of each other if I recall, which is a major factor in why they got nerfed. The fire immunity is good but not great. Sure you can fling your own fireballs on top of them, but if you want to use a summon as a ranging shot, one expendable one will do.

Like I said, the point isn't to make them more powerful but more balanced in how they fight. Able to fight a variety of things. Right now they are great for slapping about stuff with no AC on rookie quests, but are obsolete on vaguely well armoured foes. Fire eles were never the crushbot ones anyway. They used to be even worse, Power Attacking with 2 AB :???:. I reckon increasing damage from a low level to higher with higher level Summon spells is a better way to balance the summons than increasing AB. The reason being that a swarm of low level summons will always be useful by sheer weight of weak attacks then. Whether you pummel a L1 or a L10 with Magic Missiles or Acid Arrows, it'll still hurt them. If you're throwing summons on the other hand, it's not hard for low level ones to be fairly obsolete from midlevel quests onward.

derflar:
Yeah, I know you can earn/figure out some nice boosts to summons if the char is so inclined and able, and elementals are immune to a bunch of things. Also for all I know, the L4 Fire ele is hell on legs. However, the low level fire elementals have very little going for them beyond distraction as the odds are so far against them actually hitting something with 3-4 AB before they die. All the fire eles I've seen have the same profile of "Low AB, Low AC, Decent Damage". Can't comment on other ones except Earth which is fine as the low level stuff has its uses and Ooze which might not have great AB but the abilities more than make up for it. There's no variation unlike many themes where the low stuff might be weak but remains useful later as it's got ranged bolts/spells, Concealment or good AB even if the damage is weak. Only thing I can think of that is less useful is the much maligned Vomit Rat that only seems to throw up all over your Fighters.

[Letsplayforfun]

The power in summons is knowing when to use what summon theme. Just in case you do not know it: you can change your summon themes with the proper regeants that temporarily overrides your default theme.

Although I understand the wanting for equity with summons (and class balance, etc), they are actually not meant to be of equal strength. (for example in pvp).

If it so happens you are dedicated to one theme only, then embrace it as a potential mechanical weakness, but as an RPing strength.

The suggestion is noted though, and if the fire theme is indeed deemed too mechanically unbalanced, it will be changed in due time. Player feedback on this matter is welcome, especially if you're accustomed to playing a summoner.

[Brimstone Sermon]

I do understand that, and I have a couple of aims on the PC that relate to it. Thanks for mentioning anyway though. What I'm hoping for isn't that all themes are equal at everything, but that a theme doesn't become obsolete when you hit a certain level because nothing you face is low AC enough to be hit, even considering Bless, Magic Fang etc. Any theme with offensive Monster Abilities or spells on its summons tends to avoid that a bit at least.

Sticking to a theme is great, but not if it undermines the concept because the theme can't do what the PC needs it for. What I wanted was to have a PC that was very offense-minded, using either blasting spells or summons. If the summons aren't much good in attack, that rather lets it down.  

Would it be possible for the DMs to make a list of what most themes are good at? Not in a spoiler "here is the character sheet" way, but similar to the Familiars list. For example:

Animated Furniture: Animated objects are hardly smart, quick or particularly accurate, but they can soak up a lot of punishment. They are however impossible to repair by conventional means.

Illusions: Illusions are limited only by the imagination of their creator, and range from lesser phantasms skilled at bewildering an opponent to great terrors with bow and sword.

Spirits: The Bound spirits of the tormented are an evil thing to behold, and of better use to those skilled in Necromancy. They favour casting dark power at their victims from a distance.