Winding Tunnels as you enter Old Stones

[Yalta]

OK, so as not to derail/off-topic Egon's suggestion I am suggesting the same that I did on his thread:
 
http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59580&page=2
 
Essentially, just as we had in EFU:A between conflicting areas (the Wardens District), there should be some sort of "No-Mans Land" of Winding Tunnels as you enter the Old Stones from any direction.
 
It should address the main concerns of invisible attacks from either side, putting a bit of space between them, and stopping the "one transition and I am safe" issue.
 
It could also be used as a place to flesh out the "Curse" that is seemingly not all that visble to many of us... bleeding walls, wailing ghosts, undead... however the "Curse" is suppose to manifest itself.
 
Portcullis's as Vanilla Pudding suggested at each entrance could also be used.
 
One single "Winding Tunnels" area could be implemented for all the entrances to Old Stones (secret and known) you just arrive at different places.
 
As with the Wardens if you want to PVP people its a free-for-all in here. Even better than the Wardens Areas, the tunnels are always dark and cramped so it will feel truelly dangerous.

[Egon the Monkey]

Considering that Old Stones isn't likely to change or be affected too much IC, this sounds better than my idea. 30 second ram-raids back and forth aren't a particularly interesting form of PVP, whatever way they go. Populate this area with a couple of suitably disturbing invis-stripping and screech alert placeables and you get a two for one on both adding a cursed feel and making combat more hectic and less hit and run. Much like the Alleyways did in Nebezzdos.

Old Stones proper could be a barricaded slum on the upper floor, with an abandoned rotted maze of tunnels and large rooms below, filled with rats, slimes etc. Could even bring back the rat hunt quest for Old Stones, pointing it down there.

[Halfbrood]

An Upper/Lower, Docks/Dominion mentality is something that should be avoided. Further separating Mistlocke/Old Stones is not going to help that.

[Yalta]

I understand the sentiment HB.
 
But I think we already have a Old Stones (Criminal Types) / Mistlocke (Generally Lawful Types), don't we?

[Egon the Monkey]

The fact that its a no-go zone for  lot of PCs and a shelter for crooks makes Old Stones into a separate area than Mistlocke proper already. The only notable difference from the past is that there's only one transition's worth of border between the centre of both. The reason I suggested less NPC backup around Old Stones was to make it seem less "us vs them" and more a place where NPCs wouldn't stop you getting up to no good, but wouldn't help you out either.

So long as Old Stones remains an quick getaway, it's going to end up being seen more like Lower. Yes, PCs don't face having to choose a side like Dominion/Docks, but it remains an easy bolthole that blocks pursuits. Short distances and the ease of invisibility favour ganks over pitched battles, and needing to have a DM means that it's always the attacker choosing the fight rather than someone running into them.

A "twisty corridors" area that is part of Old Stones but where NPCs won't help you out would result in some actual fights, as opposed to the current setup where if you pull off the attack on either side of the old stones door you can be clear in 15 seconds. Muster NPCs wouldn't go into it "because of the Curse" and Grosse wouldn't care about problems there as they wouldn't spill into his restaurant, the upper levels could just lock the doors (like VP said, a conversation transition such as the Squat/Stew Shop use).

It would diffuse that "Upper/Lower all over again" feel as not all of Old Stones would be an easy shelter. Unlike the Warden's it wouldn't be a neutral battleground separating areas and thus the playerbase. There could be Old Stones non-combative NPCs in there and you wouldn't be able to use it to hang about in waiting to ambush Old Stones chars. It would be a place the Muster are unwilling to take in force or patrol in actively, but not somewhere to freely run from consequences from just any PC you angered. You could still hide in the protected levels of Old Stones (or conversely, escape out a back way and hide in the rest of Mistlocke if you got in a fight in Old Stones), but you'd have to actually lose your pursuers first.

[Caster13]

If the issue is PCs from Old Stones sneaking into Mistlocke, beating down, and kidnapping people in a blink of an eye, I'd ask: how easy is it for Mistlocke PCs to sneak into the Old Stones, beat down, and kidnap people in a blink of an eye?

Whether you're in the Old Stones or Mistlocke, both places are susceptable to surprise attacks, but both places are well defended against the following retaliations.

[VanillaPudding]

An Upper/Lower, Docks/Dominion mentality is something that should be avoided. Further separating Mistlocke/Old Stones is not going to help that.

I personally found both of those cases far more interesting than the Old Stones / Mistlocke relationship. Besides, wasn't that mentality already pushed for by the DM staff by implementing Old Stones and it's curse that prevents the law enforcement from actively being there?

[BrittanyPanthas]

It doesn't prevent them from going there.

It just prevents the Muster from going into the Old Stones 'in force'.  Their standing orders are to stay out, but I truly doubt that the Captain is going to discharge them if their actions bring about immediate results without too much backlash.

Basically you won't get any Muster NPC support when you go inside, and if you go in in a way that easily identifies you as Muster, then you can bet your ass that the Old Stones NPCs will react to it.

But seriously, why do we have to explain this to people?  Do people really need this much OOC clarification to decide that its okay to react as your character would?

If criminals are going out and murdering people/robbing people, and running into the Stones, do what feels natural, but exercise a modicum of common sense or there will be consequences to it.

And yes I'm talking to those PCs who reacted the last time a criminal robbed someone out of the Stones by announcing in a sending that they're going in, in force, after that individual.

If you act like that, then your PC deserves the beatdown they're likely to receive.

[Arch Rogue]

I personally found both of those cases far more interesting than the Old Stones / Mistlocke relationship. Besides, wasn't that mentality already pushed for by the DM staff by implementing Old Stones and it's curse that prevents the law enforcement from actively being there?

You weren't around for Lower, and everytime the Docks was brought up you took the chance to whine about it too, just like your'e doing now (also being largely unfamiliar with Old Stones, given you never really played a PC that went there nor witnessed the details of the Mistlocke/Old Stones 'relationship'). Typical.

From what I can tell there is no relationship between Old Stones and Mistlocke. Old Stones is just an area where the poor tend to make their home in a creepy keep, which, depending on the deeds and aspirations of PCs, may also be where criminals will choose to make their home. That's it.

Can you tell me where the vociferous philosophical emnity is? Who the fiercely rival factions are? What the history of conflict is about? No, because none of that exists. It isn't Upper/Lower and Zig/Docks at all and only an idiot would think it is.

As for the suggestion itself, its completely unneeded. I feel strongly we should avoid all these stupid suggestions about enlarging the server for frankly questionable purposes. I like Mistlocke compact, it feels like a real village, and I for one want it to stay like that.  If you want to gank some crime, just fucking man up and do it (and assume you may need to fight some NPCs, if the fight spills into the open and you're the outsider/intruder).

EFU 101 here for all the four year veterans.

[morva]

Someones angry. Leave it as is, I say.

[SkillFocuspwn]

Old Stones is seen by having criminal NPCs, having a lot of recent announcements about the large criminal element there and by it being shunned by the Muster as a criminal haven and the place for criminal PCs to go. The main points about Lower and the Docks weren't the intense political disputes, it was that there were no laws; people were left to fend for themselves and PCs could use them to hide from the standard law enforcement factions.

So, yes, Old Stones is pretty much identical to Lower / Docks as a lawless slum and as a "civilized" place for criminal PCs to go not safely but without NPC law enforcers everywhere.

Chill, bro.

[The_Sacrilegious_Scorn]

If oldstones is really just a useless hole for criminals to hide in... Can we know why it hasn't simply been closed off?

In other words.. What needs of mistlocke does it serve?

[Halfbrood]

Because there's not much room to house all these refugees.

[Talir]

This is not going to happen so I'll lock it, since it has derailed into heated arguments and aggressive accusations. Respect each other, people.