SF: Divination & GSF: Divination

[Meldread]

Outside of some awesome things you can do with DM's with Divination, alone, by itself... these feats are a complete waste.

It is possible for a player to gain approximately one mechanical benefit with these feats, and that is the casting of Feeblemind.  Compare this to other Spell Focus feats such as Conjuration or Evocation.  

My suggestions to improve these feats are as follows:

-  The character gains +5 Lore for SF: Divination, and an additional +5 lore for GSF: Divination.  Taking both that gives +10 lore (roughly the same benefit as using a legend lore scroll.)

-  With the changes to identify characters with SF: Divination can identify twice as many items as a character without the feat.  With GSF: Divination a character can identify four times as many items as a character without the feat.

-  A character with SF: Divination casts see invisibility as if they were 5 levels higher.  A character with GSF: Divination casts see invisibility as if they were 10 levels higher.  This means a 10th level caster who casts see invisibility will have it last 20 minutes instead of just 10 minutes.

-  A character with SF:  Divination gains +5 to all listen and spot checks when casting Clairaudience/clairvoyance.  A character with GSF: Divination gains +10 to all listen and spot checks when casting Clairaudience/clairvoyance.  This means the caster would receive +20 Listen and Spot with GSF: Divination.

This would make focusing in divination desirable.  Under the current system there is no mechanical benefit to taking these feats, and only serves to gimp a character.  The only other time these feats come into play is when a DM is involved.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I would advocate allowing more of the scripted divination system become more available to people who take these feats. The ability to track one individual, for example.

They need to have a specially enchanted item, you made, with an alchemical recipe maybe, which is personalized so only you recognize it when divining. much like the spellguard tokens would give out to ensure you were registered.

[lolmagics]

I'm pretty sure that massive spot / listen bonuses aren't a good idea. Forty minutes of extended see invis isn't a good idea either if you ask me.

I'd like to see it get some bonuses but definitely not those two things. I'm sure there is something cool that can be added in eventually from PnP style things that aren't in nwn, or some variation of your other ideas.

[Meldread]

Scrying was placed in for the Spellguard in the Underdark, but is currently not functioning / working for the surface.  It was also, if I am not mistaken, mostly keyed to the faction.  I've yet to find a scripting DM who wants to touch the scrying script with a ten foot pole. >_>

Massive spot / listen bonuses aren't that big of a deal when you have to consider the short duration of Clairaudience/clairvoyance.  If you're a level 10 caster it's only going to last for one minute.  This means it is only useful in situations where you suspect there is someone stealthing nearby, assuming of course you bothered to memorize it.

Also, placing that in perspective, wizards and sorcerers, don't have spot or listen as class skills.

Forty minutes for extended see invis might be a bit much, I agree, but un-extended at a caster level 10 it's only the equivalent of one extended see invis without GSF: Divination.

[lolmagics]

Scrying was placed in for the Spellguard in the Underdark, but is currently not functioning / working for the surface.  It was also, if I am not mistaken, mostly keyed to the faction.  I've yet to find a scripting DM who wants to touch the scrying script with a ten foot pole. >_>

Massive spot / listen bonuses aren't that big of a deal when you have to consider the short duration of Clairaudience/clairvoyance.  If you're a level 10 caster it's only going to last for one minute.  This means it is only useful in situations where you suspect there is someone stealthing nearby, assuming of course you bothered to memorize it.

Also, placing that in perspective, wizards and sorcerers, don't have spot or listen as class skills.

Forty minutes for extended see invis might be a bit much, I agree, but un-extended at a caster level 10 it's only the equivalent of one extended see invis without GSF: Divination.

It is a big deal when the checks are made every 6 seconds or so and you also get nice bonuses for other things, not to mention the ease of using gear that has bonuses on it. Even without it being a class skill you can get it pretty high without spells, and amazingly high with them.

The last statement you made is just a loop of nonsense. Obviously if it's not extended, but doubled, it's the same as someone else extending it. There is no reason for a see invis spell to last through your rest-cycle every time without worry without using a more powerful spell-slot for it.

[OldPortOutcast]

GSF Divination is fine since you basically get an 'I win' button in any mage duels once you hit level 9

For that spell alone, its worth taking it.

Granted I can see your point about the DMs not wanting to touch the scrying script right now, but if a DM is enthusiastic about a PC you'd be suprised how much effort the DM staff will be willing to go to tweak such things.

[Meldread]

There are a lot of 'I win' spells that a wizard / sorcerer can cast that don't involve taking two feats and getting 9th level.  In the Conclave you can ask for a Sessile Duel, requiring both mages to remain in the rune circle, and then just cast Cloud of Bewilderment for example - which requires a fortitude save.  Since fortitude is one of the lowest saves for wizards / sorcerers, it's far more useful than Feeblemind which requires a will save - the strongest save for wizards / sorcerers.  Not to mention Cloud of Bewilderment can be cast at level three whereas a wizard would have to be 9th level and a sorcerer would have to be 10th level in order to cast Feeblemind.

...but this isn't about comparing one spell against another.  It's about the fact that SF: Divination & GSF: Divination suck really bad, mechanically.

As for the scripting system, from speaking with a couple of DM's, from my understanding the reason no one wants to touch it is because it's convoluted and whomever wrote it didn't leave very good notes.    It would seem that whomever would take on the challenge would face a hellish task, and really, why devote that many resources to something just for one player?

[OldPortOutcast]

Except that Cloud of Bewilderment is a level 2 spell when you can get up the DC of a 5th level spell to DC 27-28.  That has about a 60% chance to hit even a mage fully looted out in DM gear.

It also penetrates all forms of mind warding.

[Relinquish]

Also that the range of the cloud spells short.

[Meldread]

The short range isn't an issue in a Sessile Duel - at least not based upon how the new dueling arena is set up.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Please don't derail the thread.


Building around a single spell is rather silly in my opinion.

Necromancy has both mechanical and RP perks now. I wouldn't mind the Divination system having similar.

[Relinquish]

The short range isn't an issue in a Sessile Duel - at least not based upon how the new dueling arena is set up.

Well aoe spells only trigger once upon casting anyway.

[Egon the Monkey]

Hmm. So, apparently, a l5 spell that requires a touch attack and destroys wizards and only wizards (sorcs are mages too and can still cast if they're temporarily thicker than a brick sandwich) is worth 2 feats and sacrificing Illusions for unless you take SFs in your chosen school and SF Divination. Nope. Divination is the weakest school on EfU. You lose the best defensive School (no Colourspray, Blur, Invis, or Impinvis) and gain nothing until L9, when you can get +4 DC on one highly limited spell. Whoop-de-magical-doo.

Meldread is on the right lines here. Diviners are supposed to be good at detecting stuff and should put the wind up stealth characters and lying diplomats in no uncertain manner. Right now, they cannot detect jack squat beyond what anyone but a Necromancer can, and for this, they lose a wizard's best defences.

So, ideas, rather than How To Win at Mage Duels. This is not a list of "This must all be done, IMO", but a bunch of ideas to be picked from if they're cool. There seems to be a big perception the Suggestions forums is about promoting or sinking ideas, not trying to discuss or adapt them.

• Give PCs with Spell School: Divination the Detect Evil and Detect Good commands. Maybe even Detect Chaos and Detect Law. Base it off the School as this would be unbalancing with other classes taking it if it was keyed to SF.
• Give PCs with SF Divination Tracking, to be represented as arcane sensing. Modify the system to work off Lore, Spellcraft, Search and Wizard/Sorc levels.
• Permanent Spot/Listen/Search bonuses from the Spell Focus Feats.
• Longer Duration of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.

[Divine Intervention]

I like these suggestions, we can't just say "Divination is good because at level 9 (Which isn't that easy to reach) you get one good spell".  There are lots of good spells at that level and they do not require you to lose the major defense buffs.  These scripted suggestions make diviners a useful class and what they lack in useful spell power they make up for in cool abilities.