The balance of a proactive world

[d1n4l9q7]

The player groups and just characters living completely outside Sanctuary are very proactive and fun. Its not hard to explore with others just go on one of the many quests while you do it and you’ll likely find supplies. Exploring shouldn’t be easy though for city slickers, its more just about knowledge of the land than anything. I think its just a Sanctuary problem, its like being stuck in a bubble.

A group of 3 can explore anywhere really and require little more than healing supplies which are easy to find on quests. None of my characters so far buy much from merchants other than healing kits. A mass of supplies aren't that necessary beyond what you get off quests.

[Ductape]

This is a complicated issue and I dont have enough experience to weigh in right now, but I have a thought related to Lower.

I think one reason we get slow activity at times in Lower is because the "quest train' in Upper is leaving the station at all hours while in Lower during off hours, you are likely to be alone.

One possible reason is the sending system. As far as I know the system in Lower is only available to rogues of lvl 5 or higher. These messenger girls sendings use the Upper system in a way so they go far and wide.

What about a sending system, much more primitive, for Lower only that anyone can access? The sendings would only go throughout the areas around Lower. Maybe it's just little homeless urchins running around telling everyone, or something.

[Tratzell]

Amused that the OP and nobody since has mentioned the Scriveners. While the other factions of Upper being against each other and all is something that gets argued, everyone implicitly acknowledges Scrivener irrelevance.

[Mushroom Mushroom]

Amused that the OP and nobody since has mentioned the Scriveners. While the other factions of Upper being against each other and all is something that gets argued, everyone implicitly acknowledges Scrivener irrelevance.

They are as irrelevant as you want them to be... why does no one realize the whole fucking awesome you can do in the Mausoleum? It takes something called creativity.

[Pandip]

I meant to post a small paragraph about sendings and I started ranting, so:

I've found that the lack of a sending system for non-nature, non-Sanctuary people is sometimes extremely conducive towards OOCly arranged meetings and a clique environment that ostracizes new players and those who aren't in on the current criminal going-ons. Despite having a sending system in Lower, it's highly restrictive and only accessible by a small portion of the server, save for those who are willing to go to great expense to make restricted sendings.

From my perspective, Sanctuary has always felt like a stiflingly convenient hub for EFU:R. It's shielded from enemies and threats, it seems to have the most accessible and easy low-level questing experience [SIZE="1"](although I've noticed that the amount of lower level quests in Lower has skyrocketed since the onset of the server)[/SIZE], and it literally sits as the geographic and societal center of the server. The very law-driven, anti-dissident urban nature of Sanctuary makes it a place for people to stew and ultimately outright avoid or at the very least skirt around most types of conflict -- most prominently, anything that revolves around PvP. This is especially the case during American nights, where the prospect of PvP around NPC's disappears when Caster goes to bed, assuming he has time to be online at such hours in the first place.

Sanctuary is just very safe, and sometimes I feel like the way it has been designed leads towards players becoming too comfortable with the status quo, too scared to go against the grain, and far too disinterested in stirring things up, whether they do so in the Sanctuary proper or on the other, less populated, and significantly less safe parts of the server. Going outside the norm in or out of Sanctuary is made a bit more difficult based on my above point about sendings; sometimes, information is difficult to spread around, and the intricacies of character interactions make it hard to trust that the seedy group on the outskirts of civilization is welcoming you with open arms rather than trying to trick your established PC into something nefarious.

The result seems to be a cycle where a "big bad" group surfaces every once in a while. Two, three, maybe four players get together and decide that they want to do something different. They unabashedly butt heads with Sanctuary and other parts of the server, disrupting the flow of things with a variety of methods and things eventually escalate into violence (PvP). The server seems to come together against this group, with sub-factions either taking up hostilities or standing aside neutrally and not getting involved in any confrontational antics. Then, inevitably, this group is squashed and the server waits a few weeks until the next one comes into the forefront.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and perhaps I just haven't experienced or seen enough of the server to know any better, but this seems to be the pattern that large scale conflict has taken to on the server. EFU:R lacks dynamism for me. Call it nostalgia, but the associations and factions in EFU:M seemed much more dynamic. Even if the factions were working together in some capacity (certainly all of them were fighting against H'bala and the Withering), any alliances were very tenuous and prone to any number of open conflicts in a given week. Nature had both stargazers and Stewards, two sides of the same coin with vastly different beliefs and tactics. Mistlocke had Caermyn and Aberdenn, with the Order, Conclave, Wyrm Watchers, and adventuring population interrupting the flow of the secluded hamlet with their plans, plots, and interactions. And H'bala was tangible -- she was an enemy you could interact with, an enemy you could touch, an enemy you could feel like you were sometimes affecting and influencing. The Dread is this big, evil, hilariously distant bad that people almost appear to be ignoring, which is as frustrating as it is sometimes immersion breaking.

Perhaps it is a problem with the players' interpretation of the DM's intentions, but EFU:R's associations and factions feel very bland -- like they are a way to be rewarded for doing very little that you could not do as a person outside of the group you choose to be in. Most of the factions feel like similar packages with different trimmings. Some of the factions feel wholly irrelevant or tacked on, only serving to break up the server further into small niches.

These are a lot of observations that don't propose much in the way of a solution, but I felt the need to get my two cents out there about the state of things. The biggest advice I can give is to echo Caddies' words about how attachment to your character and fear for consequences can make you a poorer player. Live your character's defeats as much as their victories. It'll make success all the sweeter. Doing brash things that stir up the server will almost always put your character in a precarious position -- and there's often a very good chance that you will fail. But if you don't let yourself fail, you're never going to have the pleasure of that really unlikely, but nonetheless wildly successful victory that defines a character and, sometimes, an era of excitement and intrigue for the server.

[Howlando]

These are fair points that I can understand seem this way from your perspective and certainly are eloquently put but I would like to emphasize one major point: the established major factions of EFU:R are established and lawful because they'll be around a long time. Villainous groups based outside the city are by their nature far less permanent and far more dynamic. Having established long-time villain factions vs. established city factions just very rapidly leads to stagnation in my opinion. Villainous factions are best either as either predominantly a PC effort or a DM supported group for a temporary plot or storyline. And we've had plenty of both examples.

EFU:R has one major hub with three major factions that are engaged in a lot of "non-violent" conflict against each other. There is also Lower which of course has its own contributions to play. And then throughout the server's history there have been a huge number of PC groups and NPC-supported groups that have been up to various things. Thrall groups, sneaky drow, svirfneblin, cults, criminal gangs...

My own view, and perhaps I am wrong, is that right before the End Plot EFU:M felt incredibly stagnant and boring to me: nature was largely an amorphous Withered Blob of bored PCs, the Order had nothing to do but write letters about grain shipments, and brawling between Caermyn and Aberdenn was incredibly tiresome and stale. EFU:R really seems far more interesting to me, from what I've seen.

The Dread Empire is certainly something of a distant threat to most PCs at this point. Which seems fine to me, since it is such a powerful foe and the consequences of failure are so great that tangling with them or striking against them is really best reserved for special events (which there have been many).

It is a fair point that perhaps access to a Sending System outside of Sanctuary is a bit difficult.

[PanamaLane]

I'll add my two cents here and keep it short!

First off, I think many of the problems you have described can be handled IG. If you have a desire to see more conflict between associations in Upper, as an example, go ahead and make an Agent or a Watcher or a Political PC of some kind and cause some conflict! Apps to this nature are often encouraged by DMs.

Two, I am smack dab in the EST late night time zone you are speaking about, but I would say, if you feel you -need- a DM for anything ICly, you're gonna have a bad time. While its nice to have them around and involved in your character, there are many proactive steps you can take without them. I'll admit it kind of sucks when you encounter a bug or something, but there is not much to be done about that.

Three, supply bloat. I remember the very first days of EFU:1 when potion and wand crafting wasn't an option yet. When you nearly had an orgasm finding a single speed potion or similar. If anything, I am always pro-tone down the potions and supply. There is easily accessible healing supplies, which is all one really needs to quest. The less the other stuff, the more desperate and smart PCs have to be and honestly the more fun and intriguing the PVP becomes.

I guess that was three cents.

[Random_White_Guy]

EFU is having a slow night so I wanted to pitch an idea. Let's kill Adventurers. I know this is the kind of thing people scream about "DO IT IC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" but hear me out for a moment. I had some fun conversations tonight on IRC with folks about the differences between upper and lower.
 
People (DMs included) are always quick to shout down about Upper Sanctuary and that it's utterly boring and people have trouble making waves against it. Let's not make it an IC fix. Let's make it an OOC fix.

I've been playing a lower PC the last few weeks for the first time in a while and it brought me to a hilarious and amusing revelation for the new year: I have yet to meet any adventurers. Everyone is a survivor. Some people are gangers. Others are cultists. Others are trouble makers. Others are just trying to get by. Most everyone belongs to a "Group".


Tonight I was bored so I started asking around PCs: What they felt was the difference between upper and lower?

00:11   00:12   

: It seems to me there is little being done to pit the various factions against each other in a dynamic/meaningful way - yes there is LETTER CONFLICT and BUREAUCRACY, but I personally can't survive on that.

: If your in lower its because you have to be.
: If your in upper it because you spawned there

From my perspective it's in a similar vein: Upper has literally every DM faction save for the Stewards and Lower has none of these. Yet somehow Upper also has a malaise of independent Adventurers which Lower simply doesn't have. I've heard it said before people feel that being an "Independent" adventurer is the best way to get involved without any of the attachments and risks. Yet Everyone I have met in lower though has ties to one PC group of friends or Association or another. I don't know if the two or linked but I find it a curious thing to observe.

In Lower if you join a cult/gang it puts you automatically at odds with others. Ascension vs. Ibrandul, Hoarrans vs. Criminals, PC gangs vs. others. It's not half measures either. People who are fully supported to a cause. You have to join a group because to be independent is to be a mark and I feel like Upper would benefit so much more with that kind of movement.

Every PC should aspire to a place in a faction, to become part of a political guild or make other moves in Upper Sanctuary.  Every upper faction is just as capable as exploring, questing and otherwise as "Adventurers" but I feel as this is a persistent world and not a campaign the idea of adventurers is simply a detriment.

Feel free to raise your thoughts on ways Upper could be improved. There's been a major case of exodus away from upper lately to Nature and Lower alike. Not always a bad thing but many people call upper the "Hub" of EFU then turns around and bashes it for being a terrible place to play a PC.

[Kinslayer988]

Hi folks! Offering some nickels or dimes or whatever they call the exchange of money on this forum. So lets talk about this Upper exodus and characters.

Upper
After taking my time thinking about it, the silent war is pretty nice. However I want to see more. More cutthroat action, more proselytizing by odd savior-like faiths like Lower has, and I want to see players investigating the factions. Why the hell do the Society have mind powers? What the hell is the deal with that Machine? WHY THE HELL IS GREER WHITE NOW?

• I like there being a balance of blind loyalty and questioning to the authorities. I enjoy questioners as their questions spurn NPC notice, PC notice, and can lead to a lot of strange mysteries being solved or uncovered for good or bad. But I love the blind loyalist such as Danuta Pak as example who follow every order and think of the positives of our Smellguard overlords. The trouble with this is that players have to be really sneaky in their questioning as a lot of the time it leads to being kicked into Lower and eaten by A) the gangs down there who hate you; or B) Player trauma and character quit. It takes a lot for players who get kicked down there unless they are very prominent and have a way to sustain themselves early on.

• Push for dominance. Although less radical than Lower, I love seeing the small movements. I want to see more factions vying for dominance and actually upsetting the rather authoritative rule owned by the Spellguard and the figureheads. Example being a knight who believes in kings, a warlord wanting to bring the Society to war with illithids completely, and religious cults!

• More PC Directors (make the NPCs mortal you devilish PCs). My qualm since my return a couple months ago has been that we have had three leaders holding control of Sanctuary since the faction has started. Kingsly, Ghould, and Ma have managed to stay each time there has been a power surge and change.And rightfully so as they lead many huge groups, but I would like to see eager players replacing them. I see the Directors as the people who change the server and get the server running. Having all of the questions, meetings, and dealings fall to one player arguing with NPCs is a complete kill to what could be the greatest conflict on the server. In the past with Mistlocke it was okay to have an NPC mayor because it was one seat. We have five seats that can be used by players to push conflicts and benefit themselves and their seedy or good conflicts. I love Ghould, Kingsly, and Ma, but I would like to see them zoned out over time with more upstart and active players.

• I want to see some desperation. When every day could be your last and the final light of Sanctuary capable of burning out, I want to see desperation. I want to see more characters have conflict in their sole beliefs of what is the answer/road to safety. Black Guild has their stay inside policy and fortress, Red Guild has their we need to trade and conquest against monsters, and the upstart Gold Guild believing in divine paradise and having divine intervention through prayer (like old Feregor). Take twists on anything you can, from murder to trade, to holy conquest. And push it to the limit.

The gist: Push for more PC Directors, I am looking to players and DMs out there. Have a character working to impeach Directors. Hold a protest! Seek to find secrets or keep them hidden. Seek domination for your faction and your character. In doing so, woo the people from Spellguard or make them hate them.

---------------------------------------------

Lower
Boy do I love that place. With greater activity recently, Lower continues to be a no-mans land of people each looking for something else. I do not need to offer much advise here, just have Lower Sanctuary people pushing against Upper, thralls, each other, enlightenment, and such. It has many beginner quests now and I believe the place would benefit from having a starting point to avoid the awkward: "Spellguard just saved my life but fuck those guys" view that plagues a lot of Lower PCs.

• Keep causing trouble and pick a group to join!

• Have more corruptable/evil elements down below. There is a certain abberant cult down there that is really cool and I would like to see PCs getting involved and causing the non-thralls to be very scared. This would also push Society members to start a branch down there.

• Perhaps lower the cost for sendings as that is the trouble. There is the secret unauthorized sending thing but that takes a lot of time to find/work and makes it trouble for characters to organize early on. It would make Lower more user friendly. I would like to see some IC actions by PCs or a gang to make their own that would be awesome (Scrappers or a gang trying to make extra cash, maybe even an ex-agent!)

The gist: Add a more friendly sending system, perhaps covering only Lower and alleyways, and say that it was stolen by some gang from Upper/Machine. Making it a constant task of the city officials to take whatever device. Leave the child messenger still which will allow wealthier PCs to make use of the Upper sending which covers a HUGE HUGE radius. Add a lurking aberrant presence and have some active cults PCs can join. Lastly have some Upper PCs who are interested in claiming it as their own territory. Someone wanting to be Director who has convinced a gang to follow him/her in a sneaky Khavenko way.

------------------------------------------

Nature
I have played with Nature quite often from EFU:A to EFU:R and one of the reasons why I have enjoyed nature is that it was highly involved in the actions of the server. There was always a dislike of nature from civilized PCs since before H'bala was released with acts of imperialism and xenophobia. My critique is that Nature is very far distanced from the main plots of the server due to a hub that is basically a faction HQ aka non-tangible most times for entry. Luckily it is very easy to form groups as there are sending places everywhere. It almost got to conflict with a small instance of a baubilium mine being raided and having the watch come after them but sadly with the death of that PC the conflict was dropped. What nature would benefit from with players would be:

• Greater inclusiveness with main events/plots. The DMs post an agenda from the elders with most events so it is up to the players to push this most.

• More conflict on baubilium/raiding players/Sanctuary for it or making some kind of deal of what is enough baubilium to mine vs what isn't.

• More vs. machine action from players.

• An npc group in Lower/outside Lower perhaps that will act to include druids/push against Machine. Would also act as a safe-zone for druids to speak at.

The gist: Push the limits of nature! It can be an old wisdom or a monster, and push to learn more and break the unnatural Machine that these people think is their salvation. Salvation only through the balance and primal world.

--------------------------------

Other
Ah yes, the other. The person who either belongs to none of these hubs or visits Lower for a bit of chaos now and then. Being a monster is greater fun than ever I would say. Even with a bounty/lynch mob. There are lairs to enjoy, PCs to enslave, and more. I have very little say on this as there are Duergar and Orogs out there having fun battling and fighting for spoils!

Gist: Great as is

These are my quarters/nickels and a dime. I look forward to seeing you all IG and pushing these.

[Tala]

Every PC should aspire to a place in a faction, to become part of a political guild or make other moves in Upper Sanctuary.  Every upper faction is just as capable as exploring, questing and otherwise as "Adventurers" but I feel as this is a persistent world and not a campaign the idea of adventurers is simply a detriment.

I do want to see more PCs in factions instead of being "adventurers" as from the factions I feel PCs can advance in the story and the plot better than just being adventurers, but there are many PCs who aren't just cut out to be in one of the major factions. And even more PCs who'd prefer to just be adventurers rather than drag corpses around the Underdark as Scriveners or be clerks and do paperwork.

One thing that I noticed lately is that while my PC is not in a bad place of knowing what's going on, I have zero idea even OOC what's going on in the rest of the factions. I feel that lately players are just OOC clueless if the factions are doing anything so they don't even bother to try and join, hence going to Lower or Nature (Might be slow still because of holidays/New Year effect though).

What I can suggest about it is that, while not making a lot of sense, players use more the letter forums to to send notes and letters to other players in the same faction as them, rather than using the faction forum or PMs (as long as the contents don't contain major spoilers of course). I looked over the Civil Service Forum and found many cool letters between PCs and I'm just not quite sure why it's there instead of being for all to see.

Example: A correspondence between two authority figures regarding capturing a PC criminal. If I was the player of the PC criminal, I'd be glad to see that OOC, because it means that someone is making a move against me, so firstly, I'm doing something right, and secondly, it's worth to stick around because fun times are ahead.
But it was in a faction forum so the player couldn't see it and I think the player retired their PC.

What I'm trying to say (in a very poor way) is that if the factions want to have more members, maybe try to do some of the letter work between faction members (PCs to PCs mostly, but even PCs to NPCs can work, I guess) outside of the faction forum or PMs.


One last thing, while it's the responsibility of the player to try and get involved in stuff, I think it should be the responsibility of the factions to involve others as well, sometimes PCs that don't belong with your same faction. Some players do that, other don't, some involve others only on DM events for those factions. If everything remains between the PCs of the faction, don't expect others to have any interest in the factions. Sure, people might turn on you and your faction, but it only makes things far more interesting that way.

I really appreciate Cmenden and Wiggyboy (before he transformed from HDM) for involving my current PC in some of their SG stuff with their Agent PCs. For a non faction PC it's really a lot of fun and feels great to be included in a few things of other factions (Non DM events, non scripted. Just exploration / lore thingies. Really doesn't need more than that :)). It breaks the routine of the "questing" side and might also bring non affiliated PCs to consider joining that faction (One day, the Auxiliary School of Cheerleading will be a thing, you'll see!)

[Pandip]

Look, if your enjoyment of EFU is derived from playing a neutral adventurer that occasionally interacts with the world at large, goes on frequent quests, and likes saddling up for a DM plot or quest when they come along, then awesome. A+, keep on keeping on and enjoying what you want out of the server.

But if you're someone who has groaned about how things aren't dynamic, fun, exciting, conflicty, etc etc  but you don't know how to solve the problem on a personal, individual level, I would encourage you to try and distance yourself from your own character -- at least enough to realize that he or she is likely one of many to come and is by all means expendable.

More specifically, I think that we all have a propensity as players to want to conserve our character's life and, by extension, we translate our OOC logic into our characters' IC interactions -- meaning that, more or less, we like acting safely and securely. If you want to stir things up, don't do this. Let your character act in a way that you would label illogical.

If you are nervous about joining a faction because you have no idea what that faction is doing, chances are that they aren't doing anything particularly important because they aren't involving the server in their activities. Granted, it's possible that you're just blindly unaware of said faction's actions -- but in general, if a faction seems dead, inactive, etc., it means that it's probably ripe for someone to bring it to the forefront of the server and stir things up.

Consolidate power. Abuse it. Be the bad guy. Be an antagonist that everyone wants to strive against -- physically, politically, verbally, whatever. Be an extremist. Sanctuary is a collection of people vying for control over the end of the world. Mix up the interactions. Create a strain between factions. Find an enemy and stick to your guns when they come hunting for you. Break the status quo. None of this even has to include an ounce of PvP for a long time if you don't want it to.

People are going to disagree with me, but I would say to stay away from the forums rather than embrace them. Forum conflict is the most passive aggressive conflict. If you want to bite your thumb at Abram, do it in a square full of people so that the whole world (esp. those that don't have a voyeuristic tendency to read every letter on the forums) knows how much you hate Montague scum. As much of an ego boost as I might get from searching my character's name and seeing someone call her a crazy lunatic moon bitch in a letter to peer #17, I would much rather come to blows with that PC IC where everyone can enjoy the tension and interaction than on the forums where it's just two or three select people.

[Blue41]

Place a greater importance on existing factions/groups in Upper Sanctuary, the way it applies to players in Lower Sanctuary. This can apply to both players and DM's- the most important perk for PC's to aspire to is not free resting or uniforms but simply who you know. Contacts, connections, relationships built and broken is what separates efu from just being NWN and it really shines in Lower. Being on the inside means aligning yourself with a gang or group that shares your ideals, and if you're on the outside, you're really out.

But that's not the case in Upper Sanctuary. For some reason, having no allegiances makes you more likely to be able to take part in whatever plot you want, not less- and that's largely due to the fact that most of the existing factions have held no major stakes in the stories that have been going on-seemingly by design. I haven't ever been a part of a plot focused around a DM-faction, and the last one I can remember seeing was a Society-plot focused on around these strange aberrant mushroom caps. The new plots we've seen have brought in more factions/associations centered on them rather than use the ones we've got, which has split the player base even further.

This isn't to say that the plot tokens inside factions should be closely guarded from outsider eyes and stay strictly between faction members only. Quite the opposite- they should be the hooks you use to draw the outsiders into your group, so you can go forth and be awesome together. This also isn't to say that plots focused around sub-races outside of Sanctuary is a bad thing. It's just that I can remember a thread way back from efu1 where the topic was how the DM factions were empty and there was a million PC faction forums with 2-3 players each and as a result, it was hard to focus a plot anywhere because you'd be playing to a room, not an auditorium.

The good thing is that all this can be changed. If you don't like a faction and think it would be better if the perception of them was X, not Y, you can grab a friend and go about that in-game. If factions are filled up with interesting PC's pushing their agendas, the plots should naturally fall their way too and with that comes inter-faction conflict: two groups, rather than two individuals, want to do this with that.