Brew Potion/Wand Craft Adjustments

[Random_White_Guy]

Hello folks. I'm about to suggest something very unpopular. I'm about to suggest we change how Brew Potion works. For a week now I've had a PC who has had the brew potion feat and I've yet to even bother to procure a Cauldron. Every time I start to go get a Cauldron and consider opening up some blessings of god potion shack, I get stuck with the same four realizations

1) Brew Potion RP is abyssmal. Make a sending saying sup got brews. People come to you and say "I got gold, plz 2 hab brews", trade for brews, transaction over have a nice day say hello to your mother for me. This is literally the average scenario I see on a day to day basis buying potions

Adventurer: You there. How much does it cost for someone to get a blurring potion?

Merchant: Allow me to check a moment [flips through pages] 80 gold

Adventurer: I'll take 10 potions please

Merchant: Certainly allow me some time to prepare

Adventurer: You there. How much does it cost for someone to get a potion of serious healing?

Priest: Blessings of are bountiful. For a simple tithing of 50 gold you can procure serious wounds potions

Adventurer: Twenty please, thank you and praise

Priest: Thank you, and may you be blessed

2) Undercutting is non-avoidable. Everyone jokes how great it would be to have some brew potion mafia adjusting the prices but there's always one person or the alt PC who shows up just at the right time someone needs potions, plops down shop, and sells everything for that old standard that everyone has come to love.

Try selling a Blur potion for 85 gold and people act like you just Ray-Rice'd their sister and call your mother Hitler and scream for the better business bureau.

3) The "Buy My Potion Thread" is something I hate but it's so prevalent in EFU on a lot of levels as a means of advertisement but on the same level it's the same thing copied over and over again. Blur 80 gold. Cure wounds x gold. 180 gold for haste. 180 gold for displace. Leave word for Jimbob the Brewmaster at Tavern of your choice.

4) It adds nothing to the server. Vlaid was joking in IRC that we could just as easily drop down a Potion Vending Machine in Upper, Lower, and the Wilds and have you put in your X sum of gold and go on your way.

Supplies are a vital part of the EFU experience, and I get that, and I understand that it's nice to be able to drop a pile of potions and take on the world. It's a great feeling and it's fun.

But as we have such a creative and awesome playerbase who have brought you so many awesome suggestions from perks, to stuff like black out mode, to stuff like random exploration explorables, and more I find myself kind of at a loss.

So I just want to get the ball rolling:

How can we fix the situation that is Wand and Potion Crafting in EFU?

What new ideas can you come up with that will help take this from being such a routine and grinded factory style to something that can be RP'd and fun and actually bring some substance to the server?

Otherwise I say hell with it and lets drop a Divine and Arcane vending machines with the same prices in key hubs and be done with it. I know in the past people have tried to do the "Sell potions at cost" thing as a recruitment trick but on the grand scheme of things that is basically some of the exact same problem.

[I love cats]

Scrap the entire NWN potion brewing, and make potion brewing a sub similar to/ a part of alchemy that requires the feat. Also double the price of wands, and add a 25% chance of it going horribly wrong.

Making a batch of potions should be risking an explosive to the face ETC. It would involve much more plotting, and even having people out in the underdark collecting supplies just so their wizard can brew them potions. That is the only idea I have to fixing this situation.

[HerDarkMajesties]

RwG! You should know better than most the amusing things that can happen when you treat 'potion brewers' as nameless, walking magical liquid receptacles.

I don't tend to see a problem here though. Those feats are tools intended to be used to further your goals:

Maybe you take them as an Agent to sell at-cost potions to ensure the Auxiliary are always the best stocked force in Sanctuary / more easily draw in new recruits.

Or maybe you're a merchant with political aspirations who offers modest discounts below the market norm for anyone that flashes you their Guild Badge, in order to encourage more players to engage in the Guilds system.

Or possibly you're only interested in using it apolitically as an effective source of wealth. The potions and wands themselves might be merely an avenue to those mountains of gold, which you would then want to use to further your characters goals and aspirations.

Then there's recent instances of how the player market has been manipulated amazingly. I will agree that mafiaesque protection rackets tend to peter out all too quickly, but  the 'Samantha Embargo' player initiative was one of my favourite ideas of recent while. Being able to hit players where it really hurts (in the potion sack), and opening up opportunities for smugglers and the like was only possible because the consumables economy is so player driven now.

None of that would be possible if all of this was given over to NPC's. So even with the system as it is now, it's always going to be better than the alternative.

However suggestion posts are about constructive responses, so:

Potion Recipes

I'd envision something similar to the bard song book, where you can find sheets to add to your 'recipe book' or 'artificers designs' that will allow you to brew certain potions / craft certain wands at a slight discount over the usual price. They might be found in explorables, as DM loot, or on scripted quests. Such a system would:

Give potion magnate merchant PC's an excuse to take themselves (and their coins) outside the Shield in search of competitive advantages over others.

Allow established merchants with many recipes to potentially corner the market with lower prices than anyone else can offer.

Open up all sorts of shady shenanigans. Since that fresh out of the portal level 5 PC can no longer compete with the Scrouge McDuckian stranglehold established brewers may have over the market with their cheaper recipes, it will force them to make some difficult choices in how to establish their business. Do they hire some shady rogue to steal the recipes of the competition? Bully them into raising their prices to a level that can be competed against? Descend into Lower to hawk their trade there instead? Perhaps they might even be forced to offer to work for them in exchange for a chance to learn their secrets.

Lots of possibilities.

[The Old Hack]

Add a variable to potion brewing. If the expense becomes more unpredictable, it becomes dangerous to undercut as you may find your profit gone entirely. It also takes away the ability of people to scream "you are making plenty of gold" as no-one can tell precisely how much profit any given batch will make.

As to the roleplay, I am a little torn. I can see where RwG is coming from but in my experience it is not all that bad. I do see the point that having potion making alts that force down prices is not really a good thing. I have also encountered people who screamed about 'bad prices' much like RwG describes though they have never really bothered me. (My favourite was this guy who said I should feel privileged to brew for him and his friends while taking a loss on every potion. I informed him that I was afraid I would have to decline the privilege.)

Ironically some of my best brewer RP ever came from an excellent attempt to create a potion making cartel back in EfU: M. My main at the time was a brewer and she might even have joined it if the leader of the cartel had not made the fatal mistake of attempting blackmail first instead of diplomacy. As a result I specifically and loudly undercut their prices and when they blacklisted me I ended all my advertisements with "Proudly blacklisted by the Alchemist's Guild." It generated a lot of tension and I was honestly surprised that the potion mafia didn't attempt to have my character assassinated... o.o

[Pandip]

If it's a choice between generic cleric PC's that feel bland and lifeless but give good potion prices or just having universal vendors at hubs, I'd rather take the universal vendors. There are very few brewing PC's that I've been particularly impressed with and it's especially frustrating to see them encourage this anti-conflict friendlyman mentality where they'll happily sell to anyone for a quick buck rather than fervently pursuing their deity's dogma.

I'm less perplexed by the wand PC merchants because wands seem more situational and expensive. You have to save for a wand, you can't just walk into the square, see the resident PC cure serious wounds vendor, and blow that five hundred you've got in your pocket on a stack.

I'd rather have wandering merchants in various places of the Underdark that give lower cost potions or rare wands. Faction vendors that give exclusive gear, potions, or wands, with some kind of temporary benefit after a faction has reached a major storytelling goal. Some kind of dynamic points system similar to the ones we've seen in gathering before. These probably have their flaws that my doe eyes aren't immediately seeing, but any alternative to uninteresting potion brewers is something I'd prefer over what we have now.

I'm not too excited about the idea of turning potions and wands into another alchemy/herbalism thing, because I have to imagine that takes a hell of a lot of time to map out and script. Besides, those are both prone to the same issues that brewing lead to: "Hey, folks! Come get my cheap alchemical wares from a recipe I know from my old PC, whether you're Upper, Lower, or Dread!"

Brewing just seems too easy. Anyone can do it -- just take a feat! Become dissatisfied with the process? Not making the profits you hoped for? Tired of being undercut by the boring standard set by a new PC who's handing out potions at cost? Choose a different feat after you've died.

I wouldn't mind seeing the access to brewing limited by utilizing some kind of recipe system similar to bard songs where you're required to have a recipe sheet or book for a certain spell, school, level, etc. Perhaps a new EFUSS skill is added and particularly high rolls give a higher level potion, while especially low rolls have a poisonous after affect. That sounds like an awful lot of work.

I guess it's just weird how easy it is to get level 3+ potions by just shouting for a brewer over the sending system and paying the universal rate for your cure serious potions like you've just gone to the gas station to buy a few bottles of pop before you go to a friend's house.

[One_With_Nature]

Supplies are a very necessary part of the game and the system serves its purpose. It's down to PCs what they make of the system - I would consider something like this low priority.

If something was introduced the only thing that jumps to mind for me would be a system where you would have to learn recipes before you can brew particular potions. These recipes could be found on quest drops etc. This means you would have to acquire these recipes in order to brew - it would open up more trade and competition to obtain certain recipes. Maybe you could have different quality recipes that allow for cheaper brewing of potions or stronger level potions. Something along the lines of- You have to have the brew potion feat to brew, you must obtain recipes for potions (Maybe have a shop to sell basic ones too), you can find rarer or unique ones on quest drops/random exploreables/dm reward of which have a consume option which adds it to a list of craftable potions held by the PC - this book of recipes could be stolen perhaps like the bard song book.

Edit: Also If a system could be implemented it would be nice to open up the potential of for truly dedicated brewers (Likely DM only reward) 4th circle potion brewing i.e Stoneskin, Freedom, Improved Invis etc.

[Howlando]

I really don't think improving upon this system is something that energizes the actual people who would do the work involved.

The system is fairly fine as is. Like many things it is up to what players make of it.

[cmenden]

As someone that LOVES the way Potion Brewing forces other players to come interact with me, I'd be incredibly sad if there were Potion Vending Machines.

I honestly would make a completely different suggestion to remove the XP cost, because it leads to bizarre situations like brewer PCs that close up shop at level 8-9+. Taking the feat is already "weakening your build" enough that it seems superfluous to also make these PCs slower to level up, and have to slow or stop their brewing after a certain level.

[Kiroy]

I don't think how potion brewing works right now is a problem.  It's a method to supply other players for varying RP reasons.  How they RP it is entirely up to the player, not the system.  In fact, I wish I had taken brew potion on my PC so she could have been more of an asset to the factions she works for.

Regarding Cmenden's XP comment, I'm a bit torn.  Part of me agrees that it's weird to see potion brewers have to close up shop as soon as they hit a level that is too high.  On the other hand, I think trading XP for gold (or utility) is part of the character decision when taking the feat.  I'm leaning towards removing the XP cost, but it's probably too much scripting trouble to be worth doing.

[Zango_Unchained]

The system is fine, if its going to be changed then make a mafioso brewer who goes around and shatters knee caps if other people aren't following his inflated prices. And if people have brewing alt pcs, that just magically poof into existence when a faction needs potions. I feel that is more then a few shades cheesey.

[Yamo B. There]

leads to bizarre situations like brewer PCs that close up shop at level 8-9+

Howdy.

It is a little strange that there is a sudden and strong mechanical disincentive to performing what is otherwise a very routine process, especially when it comes as a character grows in power and should have an easier time of it. It's completely counter to how just about everything else in D&D works. But that seems to be the nature of EFU, where high level PCs are intentionally a rarity and there is no easy road to 9+.

Potion RP is what you make of it. It's really no worse in execution than merchant RP, and everyone seems to think that's the bee's knees. If big lists of potion prices on the House of Trade boards are an annoyance, then so are collections of loot screenshots. I don't think the replacing of standard pricing with the barest haggling down of 25-50 gold elevates "buy this crap I lied in a dungeon about having a need for" over "buy this crap I magicked into a bottle" in the scintillating RP department. Buying herbs or ammunition from a merchant NPC, taking money out of the bank, or putting together a public group to do a dungeon is also very standard RP, but I don't see much (serious, I hope) complaining about that.

I also don't see many random potion alts, and I'm in a position to notice. New PCs that can brew pop up all the time, but seldom do they stick around for more than a week or two. People who brew at cost (ahem) are few and far between, and I have to think there's some RP purpose behind this intentional gimping of profits, or they'd have no reason for it. And as far as conflict goes, there has been plenty of trouble made for some PCs for selling to the wrong people (and then, from those "wrong people" being enabled by those potions in later conflicts). You really don't need a potion mafia or PCs mad at each other over variations in an already razor-thin profit margin to generate conflict, and I highly doubt most players are as keen to get to murdering or obviously sabotaging each other over 20 gold as some people might like. And if you do want to be a potion scrooge who charges exorbitant prices, go ahead and try; there have certainly been periods where you could have gotten away with it or banked on others' desperation and immediate need. For my part, there have definitely been occasions (and still are) where my character simply fails to show up for requests or tosses out some pithy excuse for needful PCs who have displeased him somehow. OoOoh~, consequences.

It doesn't seem like anything that needs more mechanical oversight or shaking-up. If we're going to complain about stuff not adding anything to the server, then neither would a random vending machine; that would immediately take away all potential for any of the conflict already listed in the thread, and some RP, no matter how mundane or beneath someone it might seem.

[Bearic]

A leveling brew potion system could be interesting if difficult to make, but open up options for more than simply brewing potions. For instance, you could add rare drinks like discipline into the mix, custom ales, perhaps, or even cheaper but more dangerous potions, like mystral drinks.
 
I don't think potion rp has to be miserable, however, your general sale in the public eye is often dull, but I found it's probably one of the best incentives for making allies or dirty deals if you wingle the prices around.