Some gripes articulated

[Gippy]

Damn, adventure is dead? How many groups have returned to the underdark without DM prompting? Like - 8, and it was sweet. This server has so much going on that it is daunting. I do agree the factions could use some work. Sharboneth/Armada are both good though in the roles they play. Order is sort of redundant and limiting - but oh well. Anyways, adventure is far from dead bit maybe really intense adventure is not actually what you are looking for.

[Flying Swordfish]

As for the concern of a lack of place like Mur, that's in the works. Just be patient. <_<

YES!

[Howlando]

I don't understand how transitioning a successful PC faction to a DM faction would go well at all.

If you're doing a great job running a PC faction, why would you want the DMs suddenly to come in and decide who gets to join it through some sort of tedious application process?

As for the Lathanderites, we rewarded those PCs that were part of it that actually logged in. Not sure what else we could have done.

[Gwydion]

Howland,

In the "Must they all die" thread, it was clearly articulated that it is to be expected that  good characters should emerge, initiate conflict, and the likely outcome is character death due to this conflict at some point in time.  

This norm makes it extremely difficult to sustain a player faction as the primaries die off.  If you fight to establish the faction and do a good job of creating/responding to conflict, then its nearly inevitable.

It's a paradox.

How many player factions have survived for a long period of time? I remember when it had been one year for the Stouthearts, and you mentioned that was unusual.  They were a nice bit of history in the server, and were a recognizable and fun player faction to be a part of.  And although they didn't do much in terms of driving server plots, they still had some nice DM support from time to time, which really helped to keep it going.

To have a good player faction, you need conflict.  Yet, conflict results in PVP which frequently ends one or several of the primary characters of the faction.  This generally ends the faction, which is a bad thing if it adds some flavor to the setting.

I always thought the Temple of Hoar in the old setting was a great opportunity for players to have a player faction or just a single player with some measure of DM interaction.  

The Archeologists/University is another example of something built into the setting that encourages players to RP a setting appropriate character without it being a DM faction per se.

Maybe there is a pretty good amount of DM support for player factions that I am not noticing, but personally it seems difficult to name more than 2-3 of them that are visible and viable at any given time. That would suggest they could use something tangible like a HQ or other perks which is something that has been done in the past.

Perhaps I'm wrong (as usual) and have missed the mark totally.  But I would like to see some permanence to well-established factions if it can be arranged in some way for the good of the server as a whole.  

Agree that making it application only is probably unnecessary.

Have there been other player factions that have become established and supported factions with NPCs in the old or new setting?

[Howlando]

We're going wildly off topic now, my point was that I don't understand how taking a successful PC faction (a faction run by PCs)  and jumping in and dictating who gets to join via application (the definition of a DM faction) would help the faction at all.

I certainly understand the issues with PC factions relating to permanence and how easy it is for them to disappear when a few key PCs go away, but that's not what I was getting at. Really, I tend to think probably most PC factions likely should have a natural ending at some point depending upon the nature of it.

Of course another issue with providing support to PC factions is that often when we do provide measured perks to a particularly thriving group (as an example, House Montezzi) other players get upset about it for whatever variety of reasons.

I really truly do believe that the success of any particular PC faction is entirely dependent upon the players in that faction. Some players have the knack to develop that snow-ball effect that makes other players want to log on and join that group - and that is what makes the faction do well.

The more "tangible" perks that in the past you may have looked to a DM to get, are more automated in EFU:A. For instance, if you want a HQ, you can either rent one in the town or alternatively claim any number of different hideaway camps/spots in the wilds. Uniforms with slight magical bonuses can be easily designed and mass produced. Banner groups can earn political influence with the populace without a DM watching all the time.

[Howlando]

One: the isle doesn't have that feeling of OMG, i'll be stuck here forever. There's a boat out, all it takes is coins. Your PC has actually no reason to stay on Ymph. If he does, it's because Ymph is as good as anywhere else. There's no 'we can beat the server' challenge now. Even ‘lvl’ wise, it’s so easy to get to lvl8-9, it’s hardly a challenge. Too much items imo.

As others said, it'd be very silly to have the same "escape" goal. Escaping the Island is fully automated and scripted, and is something you should feel free to pursue - and yes it is mostly about gathering the gold, but if you want that experience, go for it. It's not difficult to imagine why plenty of other characters would remain.

Two: more, EfUA is supposed to be a sand box, but things started by players were stepped on by DM factions. Two things cought my attention -and not because i cared much, but because players where whining to me about it:
- governement: players trying out to make their own, then being stepped on by Sharboneth. That cooled down many people.
- building things: there's been lots of players 'rp' clearing a place and trying to buid for a month (Delver, for ex.) and the next day the Docks is build by other folks. It’s leaving a sense of ‘why bother’.
If you want players to use the sandbox, you'll need more DMs/players ratio, and actually build what regular players are trying to build. Certainly help the great players, because they make the server better, but don't claim there's a sandbox if it's only available a few more mature/leadership/creative players. Don’t empesize RP and ‘building’ when all it ever ends in is conflict and PC death.

- "Trying" to build something is not good enough, to accomplish something major you still need to actually make it happen. House S's arrival was fully IC and PC supported. I believe we were appropriately supportive at all steps of the process, although admittedly I was on full leave from DM'ing at the time myself.

- Emoting about "building" something is not going to help you. There's a post floating around somewhere, "Earning Real Estate in EFU" I think that describes the way to actually build something. When I say EFU is a sandbox, I do not mean it is a place where you can log on for half an hour and emote building something and then rely on a DM to make that change. Building stuff has to be earned through story. Emoting the same line a few times is not really much of RP to me.

Three: player factions never survive the leader’s death, partly because they actually build nothing except rping relationships. If the Dwarves had a keep built, if the Lathandrites had a temple, if the Tiamats had a shrine, it would bring continuity. Sure it’s making new areas, but small ones, and i’m sure the players themselve would use the toolset to propose their own small things. And those things could be fought over, destroyed, etc. That’s my idea of a sandbox, at least. For now, the factions i see are mostly questing groups, that pretend to build things, but never really do, and when the leader dies, so does the faction.

Sprinkling the module with a million different abandoned shrines and such seems like a really bad idea to me. It's not what I mean by building. Real Estate can be earned, but it should not be simple.

Four: Another thing: the structure of the society reminds of ancient Rome, with patricians, citizens, slaves, yet we as players do not have the culture of respect for Higher born people, and this special atmosphere of social hierarchy is lost as soon as the next guy insults some patrician who does not have means of answering according to his rank. Only one or two are up to the rank, but the rest of patricianhoods are just.. empty, imo. Make patricianhood app only imo, with decent goals and better perks behind it. Have the Law enforcing respect to those that make it.

I think I prefer Patricianship being something that PCs can earn on their own. It definitely confers major perks and benefits, perhaps what you're proposing there would be closer to nobility.

Five: the dominant faction is too blurry. So blurry i've found no one IG that could actually tell my PC if it was true Sharboneth allowed slavery. For various reasons: either they don’t know, or (worst) they don’t care... I'd rather have it pure evil (or pure good), so people are forced to take a stand. Pure evil would certainly be colorful and bring about a real resistance. I’ve seen retainers not knowing if they ‘can’ order Stygians about! People don’t know what to make of Sharboneth: no cult, no deeds of the leader to bring respect or disgust. They are just... here.

I blame your time zone! <_< No - I understand this is likely the case with a lot of players who don't pay much attention, so we'll work to improve. I don't think it should be or is that mysterious though, House Sharboneth is a graspingly greedy yet troubled noble house with evil, good, and mostly neutral members. Since I'd rather not have to re-write the political system every month or two according to the whims of the playerbase at the time, I prefer their LN stance rather than being either super evil or super good.

Six: visible intrigue between DM factions would be neat, but there's only one main faction to deal with, and the others (Stygian, Order) are just mercenaries with their own agenda, even apparently working for/with the main faction. I’m sure there is intrigue going on, but if so it’s invisible to outside folks. Maybe make a rival house come in? Or have the major military force start to want to gain independance a little? As for secret factions, well, they are secret...

Can't say I really agree but I can understand how it can see that way.

Seven: exploring is tough, and getting to sites of interest is long and dangerous, which discourages exploration. On EfU, players could cross 2.5 areas and be at Mur or Claw Port, and therefore go to the fish isles and stuff. On EfUA, well, it’s wild wild wild, and when you get to that hermit site, or the barbarian camp, or to the desert, it’s time to log off. More safe ‘sites of interest’ would certainly help making teams to head out and explore, imo. Not just camps, which are nice, but which are just on the way things.The Salty Shark inn was nice in that sense, for example, even if far off.

Having some more destinations to go to, as well as just generally making exploring more interesting, is on the list. For instance, a quest where a different and unique island is randomly selected, as well as other things.

[The Beggar]

I actually support some of Kot's arguements, and have had discussion with a few DMs over the ambiguity of a number of the factions.

To me that flavor of the factions just is off. That's just my opinion. I do however think that the changes to the structures of the factions are spot on, and really give them a direction and definition they lacked in the past. In the end though, I'm just not interested in either playing or playing alongside lots of LG/N footmen defending the colony and crusading in the name of God, LN/TN armsmen defending the colony and crusading in the name of Sharboneth, or LN/LE armada mercs defending the colony and crusading for gold. Or all three working together but secretly trying to stab eachother in the back.

Perhaps I will in the future, perhaps not. It's just not a spectrum of alignment, dogma, or goals I do not enjoy. But kudos to the DM staff for setting them up properly, and allowing change to occur on the island for those who are interested in those things. That's what -is- important.

[KjetilofNorway]

I actually find the lawful alignment highly interesting in this setting because the "law" is relatively new, and hardly justified by anything else than might. The fact that the law isn't (or at least doesn't appear to be) rooted in history/tradition/culture etc. gives the lawful factions a touch of savage tyranny! Neat, IMO!
 
"Laws are like sausages. It's better not to see them being made."