Rogue Vs Ranger

[TheTurboNerd]

Rogues, or rather pure Rogues, by in large tend to be niche. Perks were introduced to ameliorate this and to provide an incentive to play a pure rogue (or pure something else) rather than taking a 3 lvl dip for swag Sneak, skill, and tumble bonuses (to say nothing of Uncanny Dodge).

Next to Rangers however, rogue's still under-perform in one key aspect: Stealth

Rangers are quite simply better at stealth. Not only do they recieve a +4 to all stealth based checks on 80% of the server - and I love trackless step and would never take it from Rangers - they also receive buff spells that when combined let them increase their Hide/MS by +8/+6, not an insignificant amount. This is combined with plentiful ranger/druid/barb loot that increases hide/ms to make Ranger a very viable and fun class. Rangers are great, and should not be nerfed.

Instead I propose that pure Rogues receive access to a special rogue store that lets them purchase camo/OwTL consumables at a relatively cheap rate (that can only be used by rogues), and to sell illegal goods, as well as other knicknacks. Maybe Bilby has been revamped to provide this, I don't know.

[Damien]

One day I'll learn to read the forum rules.

[Paha]

Moved to suggestion.

[Stranger]

A store along the lines of this concept already exists, a stealth-focus rogue receives up to +5 H/MS from perks alone, and because Camouflage is a first level spell, potions of hiding are inexpensive anyways. The warpaint equivalent is even cheaper. All it takes is a bit of searching.

A rogue's mastery of the tools available to them is how they cross the line into powerhouse, I think. They have considerably more mechanical potential than a ranger if they realize how to use it.

[TheTurboNerd]

A stealth focused rogue of lvl 8 receives up to +4/+4 hide/ms, which is = to what a ranger gets at lvl one.

These shops help no one if there's no IG way to find them beyond already knowing.

[Stranger]

You're right, I had thought Thief granted +2/+2, for whatever mad reason.

I am not sure how I feel about a publicly available and obvious rogue store. Surely, the rogue community could identify and help guide blossoming scoundrels men of skill?

[Blue41]

Back in efu:a/m, too much stealth was never enough. I don't believe that applies this chapter, where you end up getting a pretty decent bonus to the constant low-light conditions of the UD. Potions of Cavern/camo are fairly widespread, but more importantly, I don't think as much of an investment in hide/ms is needed in this chapter to stay unseen. I've heard of low-level characters (5-6) successfully stealthing through the Lowerdark without incident. Some things will always detect you, but I'm not really sure if there are places a ranger could sneak to that a rogue couldn't. Do you need to be as good as hiding as a ranger- or good enough to get where you're going?

Also, I always figured the city environment is where rogue stealth really shines.

[Valo56]

Perhaps if the Scout Perk granted OWTL 1/day and Shadow granted Camouflage 1/day, that would help bring rogues on par with rangers (and druids)?

I agree that rogues are the worst stealthers of any class with them as a class-based skill. Monks move at higher speeds, rangers and druids get spells and druids get wildshapes, and bards get songs to help (or they did before, at least). Even barbarians can get a pretty decent hide/move silently with the right perk.

I once had a ranger who could stealth effectively in full plate (he was multiclassed fighter). So.. yeah, it's a bit awkward. One could say that the focus of a rogue isn't stealth, it's their wide array of skills, but I still feel they should be significantly better than they are at stealth.

[Vlaid]

Is there even a need to bring rogues stealth abilities up to ranger levels?

Rogues have a host of other abilities outside of raw stealth power. I always felt that more than made up for it. Rangers are kind of singularly defined by their stealth and general ability to thrive in the wilderness.

Maybe something like adding your intelligence modifier to your Hide/Move Silently might be interesting though.

As to the Rogue shop idea, I think there's been one of those in a chapter or two throughout EFU as well as a shop specific to Merchant Lord perk. I would love to see one or both return in some fashion for EFUR.

[HalflingPower]

Not all classes are made to be equal, nor should they be.

[Ice Princess]

So Rangers get better stealth than Rogues, but let's look at what a Rogue gets that Rangers don't.
 
Rogues get Sneak Attack, open locks, Use magic Devise, and more skill points than just about any other class.
 
Rangers get Dual wield, FE, animal companion and a few spells.
 
They balance out rather well if you ask me.