Nerf Taunt

[Scrappa-yeti]

I have been away for a while, and I am well out of the PvP meta.

One of the things I have noticed, upon my return, is how prevalent Taunt seems to be.

It is not something I have used much, myself, but when I read the NWN wiki, I was astonished at how damn strong it is.

Unless it has been changed for EfU, it seems a fraction OP, which I guess is why so many use it.

Up to -6 armour AND 30% spell failure, for a free action? That lasts five rounds, and cannot be dispelled?

Technically you get flat-footed during the really short taunt animation, but in practice it often seems to happen between strikes, on our low-level (and therefore low attacks/round) server.

So many of the duels I see seem to be decided by it's use, or lack thereof. It also makes concentration a tier one skill on non-mages, which is just a bit boring, truth be told. Even with equal concentration and taunt, the swinginess of d20 rolls means you have a reasonable chance on any given taunt of going low AC, if I understand the mechanics correctly.

I don't know how hard-coded the maths are, but I would recommend giving it a trim.

Perhaps max -4 AC, and 20% spell failure? It would still be super strong, but not win a fight with one decent roll.

Alternately, make the AC and spell failure dispellable like other de-buffs, so that for the cost of an action there is some sort of counter-play other than max concentration and cross fingers.

[Anonymous Lemur]

it's not a free action. It requires you take an entire round of attacks to activate and is a check against concentration d20 + taunt vs d20 + concentration. If you haven't invested into concentration you will assuredly get taunted.

Those "between strikes" taunts are actually where somebody has activates taunt, sacrificed a round of combat and it didn't quite activate, which results in the next taunt being instantaneous. There is also a delay on taunt such that you can't immediately attempt again if you fail.

The counter play outside of having high concentration is to kill them in their taunt animation or run around with spring attack or tumble until the taunt wears off.

[Necro]

Can confirm its not a full round action. I've seen it used to deadly effect in-between attacks to get it off while they cant strike you back flat-footed, and then your taunted and they resume next round with full APR. Its immensely powerful, but its also quite the investment, concentration gear is prevalent, its a con skill so melee types already get a nice bonus there if they invest well, and its a main skill for all melee classes too.
However, a nerf wouldnt be a bad idea, then again, at the same time, ive used it various times only to take 1 AC off and half the time it doesnt work. Without investment in SF taunt, or taunt gear, its not as OP as many think initially, but with the right build (given taunt also requires CHA, which is not a melee investment most times) it can be pretty effective.

[wundyboy]

Taunt is the only solid way to kill rogues and bards. Taunt is also only a class skill for three classes and requires a pretty decent investment since concentration is so prevalent in EFU itemization. While it is powerful, its also easy to negate by running around or breaking contact with people until its over. Also, imagine dealing with expertise without taunt.

Its one of those things that seems strong on paper but requires a bit technical know how on when to use it properly and not get punished by it.

[Scrappa-yeti]

@ Anonymous Lemur

The action takes less than a round. Which means you can just miss the taunt window altogether.

I have been keeping an eye on it with my current character, because with sneak attack it is really clear when the swings are, or are not, against a flat-footed person. I have a very low rate of sneak attack against taunting opponents.

I have not been counting, but it would be less than fifty percent, at a guess.

Because it is d20 vs d20, even with equal skill you have over a 1 in 4 chance of  -6 for five rounds, if my maths is correct. 

That is  pretty damn strong for an undispellable debuff. It pretty much settles the fight.

Most of the other "settles the fight" abilities have a clear counter, if you guess or prepare correctly.

[Anonymous Lemur]

Did the characters you were taunted by have the feat "uncanny dodge"?

As of EE the uncanny dodge feat was "fixed." In original nwn you could not be sneak attacked while drinking potions, taunting or attacking another character so long as the sneak attacker was not 4 levels higher than you. EE fixed it so that this now effects all levels of uncanny dodge. Thus to successfully sneak attack a barbarian, you need to be 4 levels higher or they need to be out of combat standing still, tangle bagged or otherwise disabled.

This would give the effect of you being unable to sneak attack if fighting someone of equal level. Though classes like Bard and Paladin do not get uncanny dodge.

It's possibly to use an exploit where you cancel the animation early to get an instant taunt later... but I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt on this one or perhaps blissful ignorance.

Also you lose ac = how much you failed the dc by. So if you roll equal then nothing happens to your ac and you get 30% spell failure.

[Scrappa-yeti]

I was including the +6 over the roll in my calculations. 

Here is a chart at equal taunt and concentration:


Here is a chart at plus ten taunt:


So about 25% and 70% chance of full -6 respectively.

[Pup]

The Taunt skill is definitely not an obvious PvP win.  It's not free-action, and you definitely are subject to sneak attacks when you attempt it (barring the aforementioned 'Uncanny Dodge').  Boo Hoo if you don't have the Concentration to resist it.  You have choices.  You can choose to put ranks in Concentration, or not.  You can choose to have Expertise or Improved Expertise to counter.  You can choose to have heavy armor.  Not even close to being a problem as far as my experience has ever been.

Not to mention how many PvE enemies used to spam it.  If the PvE didn't convince you to take Concentration ranks, I can't imagine a few PvPs would be any different.

Edit: The old Orog Fortress quest.  Getting taunted while surrounded by angry orogs is far scarier than being taunted one-on-one.

[Scrappa-yeti]

@Pup

Cool cool, it is not a "free" action, it is a "less-than-one-round" action. That more accurate?

None of the people I have fought have had uncanny dodge, as far as I am aware.  I do sometimes get a sneak attack when they taunt, just not often.

I hoped my charts showed that even investing in concentration is not a hard counter. 50% chance of some AC loss, 25% of the full -6 at equal numbers.

As someone currently playing a plate mail/expertise character, it really does not fix the problem. I usually cannot keep my AC high enough to live through a full 5 round debuff.

An additional problem is you cannot see the roll, nor the result, without manually checking your AC. So it is fiddly to make a decision about it, even if you do have a plan.

[Pup]

Perhaps I was overly-flippant.  I apologize for that.  All I know is that personally, playing many chars of various aptitudes of PvP, I've both loved and hated the Taunt skill.  But I never blamed it.  I've been mauled by players who use it, and I've stood tall and mauled those who have tried it both.  I've also been the one doing the mauling.  Or the one failing miserably at his/her's taunt tries.  I can't even recall how many PvP's I've lost because I was trying to Taunt instead of just fighting.  I'm just saying that it's already able to be countered effectively in several ways.  If your High Concentration/Expertise/Heavy armor char is losing, that's just bad luck.  I like your charts, and sort of see your point, but I just don't see the need to neff the skill.  TONS of items add to Concentration (or at least they used to, I can't speak on the newer loot table).  Not to mention that if you want to be effective at Taunting, you really need to put skill points towards it, which means less skill points to other more generally useful skills.  While I agree that it can be strong, I don't agree that it is over-powered.

Though I agree that it sucks you don't see the DC rolls.  That has always annoyed me.