More alignment shifts!

[John Doe]

I don't mind alignment shifts anymore like I used to. You don't have to play differently because your alignment is changed but quite the contrary. Play it any way you'll like!


Having said that, alignment shifts are almost always one frame of a much larger picture. Some DMs do shift regularly,  some never do, and then one dm will shift you 2 pnts where the other would shift you 15.

I got 20 points to evil on a CG character for using rats to spring a special trap about a year and a half ago. That was something which went up for a more heated discussion than I care to admit, and that was that. I felt criticised for the way in which I employed the de-trapper 2000 there. What lesson I took from it was to roll with the 'punches', and don't play your character differently from how you feel he is developing. Eventually DMs will take notice, and particularly if you mention it in that OOC journal they keep blabbering about ;-).

[putrid_plum]

Alignment shifts are good, especially when they make sense.  BUT!!!  An example from person experience from a long gone DM, once my character made a joke to my characters side kick when experimenting with the Machine.  I suggested, joking, he should get into a device that 'might' hurt him.  I got evil points.  My point is, if a DM isn't actively watching your character they might not understand your characters relationships or much about him, jump on see you doing 1 thing and out of context BAM alignment shift.

So if you murder 50 babies yes, if you save people from a burning house yes, but sometimes they don't make sense and THATS when players are like uhh wtf?

[PanamaLane]

We were discussing this last night on irc. I generally like alignment shifts, but I do remember a case where I flipped out because of one.

I think they are particularly problematic with the Paladin class, because unlike any other class it is an indictment that you are not adhereing to the almighty code. This is compounded by the fact that Paladins are often placed in difficult moral dilemmas where the right thing to do is completely subjective, even to the DMs.

[SonOfGoddess]

For propriety's sake, gimme all the alignment shifts!

[LiAlH4]

I think they are particularly problematic with the Paladin class,  because unlike any other class it is an indictment that you are not  adhereing to the almighty code. This is compounded by the fact that  Paladins are often placed in difficult moral dilemmas where the right  thing to do is completely subjective, even to the DMs.

Playing a Paladin is incredibly difficult, succeeding as one can be even more difficult. I will gladly make one fall for acts which are questionable. Expect to be thrust into morally questionable circumstances and be forced to take the hard road or fail in your oaths.

A Paladin is a case where there is always an absolute good, with minor variations relating to the doctrine of the god, where ends do not justify the means.

If you are playing a Paladin and a DM causes you to fall from grace, this is because we have noticed something extremely interesting that you have done and intend to follow up on it. Reacting poorly will leave you ignored, with your PC's career likely ending ignominiously, because the last thing I want to do with my time is argue with someone OOCly about morality ingame.

Falling is a plot-hook, more often than not.

[The Marauder]

I have to address an issue and comment towards anyone who is uncomfortable with alignment shifts. Folks, just look at it this way. Alignment shifts should be seen as  nothing more than noticeable marks in your character developing.

My  recently-deceased sorceress Nathanya was Neutral Good right up until  the events that lead into her descent into darkness. She went from  NEUTRAL GOOD to CHAOTIC EVUL in, like, two weeks. How did this happen?  She acted on impulse constantly, started to lie left and right (which is  chaotic by nature), committed unspeakable acts of evil that transcended  murder; yet, believe it or not, still did not see herself as a bad  person. Intentions and character mentality are completely irrelevant in  the alignment system. The universe judges you by your acts and decisions  in the setting; you do something evil, it doesn't matter WHY you did  it; you could kill a man to save a million children, it's still an evil  act.

Now that this has been established, if your character is  starting to stray from an alignment that your class does not agree with,  that's not the DMs' fault; your character made that choice because you  decided that is what your character would do. That doesn't mean it is  your fault either; something happened to your character to change their  mentality or push them towards this new mindset.

Example: A  paladin smites an evil villain who trys to turn himself in for murdering  innocent people. You get good points, but you also get chaotic points,  as what you did was considered unlawful as far as society is concerned  (ideally, the paladin would've turned him in and prosecuted him if he  truly wished him to pay for his crimes). The alignment change is  character development; your paladin came across a villain so heinous and  despicable that he/she simply could not risk letting the man walk free;  a noticeable stray from the law as your character was uncertain the law  would dispense some justice (remember, law and justice are two separate  things) or too impatient to wait for it.

Now, in most cases,  your character has a chance to recover and redeem themselves from these  strays (we all screw up sometimes, don't we?); if you, as a player, do  not WANT your character to continue down this path (people are inclined  to feel guilty about their actions), nothing is stopping your character  from deciding to do so (most of the time anyway). However, depending on  your character's traits, current events, and other agents of character  development, your toon can slowly but surely (or perhaps quickly,  depending on the magnitude of your actions) turn into someone completely  different; someone you as the player NEVER imagined would end up  playing on this character.

This is the beauty of the D&D  alignment system, and why I love it so much. I always enjoy getting  notices of my character's development; it shows that my character has  either changed or, if you're actually going the direction you WANT your  alignment to go (100 lawful 100 good for a paladin), that your character  is staying true to their beliefs and values when there's so many  reasons not to (and let's be honest, the setup for this server alone  gives us PLENTY of reason to develop in different ways).

If any  players are confused as to WHY they got an alignment shift, they should  perhaps think long and hard about the four cornerstones of the alignment  system and why what they did might have pulled them towards one over  another. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. The universe in D&D is pretty black and white on this.

[PanamaLane]

A Paladin is a case where there is always an absolute good, with minor variations relating to the doctrine of the god, where ends do not justify the means.

Without making this all about this one particular instance. I was handed some evil points for not confronting/attacking a necromancer. The issue was, necromancy was legal at the time and place where it was happening. And while Lathlander's law trumps that of mortals, I didn't feel at the time the most good could be done by needlessly jumping into the trap, breaking the law and likely sabotaging my future plans by being arrested or executed, which I believe was fully the intent of said necromancer.

My paladin did not fall- but rather went on to be probably my more successful characters on EFU:A. More then anything I was annoyed that the DM who gave me the points, didn't seem to understand that I had given such circumstances serious thought and acted in the way I felt most appropriate to the character. He simply told me I was wrong (maybe I was wrong?).

All water under the bridge, but this is why alignment shifts can sometimes be taken personally. Nobody wants to be told they are not playing their character correctly.

Edit:

In the many years of playing with you all, I've had tons of alignment shifts. This was the -one- exception to the general rule. Normally I love them, think they add great fluidity to the character. Perhaps I was particularly sore because it was also one of the few times I brought up a grievance with the DM and essentially was ignored. I understand the last thing DMs want to do is argue about this stuff- but that's another thing that can lead to hard feelings.

[fireflies]

Without making this all about this one particular instance. I was handed some evil points for not confronting/attacking a necromancer. The issue was, necromancy was legal at the time and place where it was happening. And while Lathlander's law trumps that of mortals, I didn't feel at the time the most good could be done by needlessly jumping into the trap, breaking the law and likely sabotaging my future plans by being arrested or executed, which I believe was fully the intent of said necromancer.

My paladin did not fall- but rather went on to be probably my more successful characters on EFU:A. More then anything I was annoyed that the DM who gave me the points, didn't seem to understand that I had given such circumstances serious thought and acted in the way I felt most appropriate to the character. He simply told me I was wrong (maybe I was wrong?).

All water under the bridge, but this is why alignment shifts can sometimes be taken personally. Nobody wants to be told they are not playing their character correctly.

Edit:

In the many years of playing with you all, I've had tons of alignment shifts. This was the -one- exception to the general rule. Normally I love them, think they add great fluidity to the character. Perhaps I was particularly sore because it was also one of the few times I brought up a grievance with the DM and essentially was ignored. I understand the last thing DMs want to do is argue about this stuff- but that's another thing that can lead to hard feelings.

it was a trap! I think that in such situation, no mater your action you would have earned some points...

you'd become more evil for being pragmatic or more chaotic for not bending to the law.

heh... poor boy

[Lira]

If any  players are confused as to WHY they got an alignment shift, they should  perhaps think long and hard about the four cornerstones of the alignment  system and why what they did might have pulled them towards one over  another. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. The universe in D&D is pretty black and white on this.

If you really believe that there's anything even vaguely like consensus among the D&D-playing populace about what any given facet of alignment means, I have a bridge to sell you.

More forum flame-wars have been fought over how to interpret alignment than any other single issue in all of Dungeons & Dragons, over all editions, probably more than most other arguments combined. It is, quite frankly, a totally busted system that only barely works for individual tables by establishing a group consensus, and it breaks down horribly in a persistent world setting.

[LiAlH4]

I think it has been said before: play a character, not an alignment, and roll with whatever punches you receive in terms of shifts.

Issuing stern recriminations to DMs issuing the points will poison your efforts and reduce the chances of your PC receiving attention. OOC maturity is required in all facets of conduct in EFU.

This thread has served its purpose, methinks.

[derfo]

This topic has served the purpose of explaining why DMs often do not bother with alignment changes pretty well. Just a mess.

Alignment changes are usually among the most unimportant numbers in EFU, regarding mechanics and story both. Unless it's an actual shift, which generally only matters in the case of falling from a character class, or losing the ability to wield an item, or something along those lines. This would give you a unique path to pursue... atonement, despair, whatever. This might already obligate a DM to observe you, without the need for a caustic response. It will be what you make of it, but again, they're just mostly pretty worthless numbers to us.

Of course, those who claim to enjoy alignment changes, or have a character who is pursuing a story in which they feel their alignment really has an impact somehow, are welcome to note such in a Personal Character Notes thread, and I'm sure that interested DMs will consider it. =)