Spawn difficulty: Driders and Drow Thralls

[Damien]

Simply put these things have massive ac, ab and hp, with the latter also having access to healing potions too. They both far outweigh, in strength, anything else that currently spawns and are frankly way too strong for near all pcs. To give you an example, Stromme fully buffed missed thralls about 30%-40% of the time, which given the context is just crazy.

I understand they are meant to be tough by anyone less than level 8 who has already had a wizard buff them might as well run away. Can we not see about reducing the ac, or ab of these things? To at least make them manageable. You can always have stronger ones which are dm spawns.

Also could we reduce the packs in which driders spawn? I've never seen a pack with less than 4 and a mage spawning.

[bobofwestoregonusa]

Once we devalue the thralls and drider people will farm them as a hobby. The dread are the number one threat to the entire planet.

[Damien]

Incorrect, Ilithid are meant to be, and their armies. Not two drow thralls and an archer, PCs will never be able to amount the same amount of strength otherwise, which is tragic.

Not to mention the dms are smart enough to balance them so they are still challenging.

Maybe then we could have people actually exploring Traensyr more. It should frankly follow the model of sunken enclave. Challenging with the chance of getting overrun but potential reward of a quest, further exploration and lore. I don't see how any of that doesn't add value to the server.

[putrid_plum]

While I agree they are strong, I do not think they are over powering at all.  Some aspect of EFU should be scary.  I know for a fact me and one other PC explore Traensyr semi-regularly and I don't think the spawns (even with a DM) were too bad.

What I do suggest would be more variety in thralls.  By this time shouldn't there be duergar thralls, svirfneblin thralls, or other underdark races like orogs?

[Kinslayer988]

I am unsure of the opinion of the rest of the team, but I would prefer these stay as is. There needs to be a sense of terror when fighting these forces. I can think of one spawn that might need tinkering because it kills people on transition but aside from that I want this to stay.

You should have a large force when going against drow thralls. You should be full buffed when going against drow thralls. You should fear drow thralls.

[bobofwestoregonusa]

Drow were already a horrifying threat, now they're under the control of ilithids. I don't see why that would make them any less horrifying. Drow thralls are still the /drow/. The drow are a mythical horrifying legend that most people never even meet and now we're surrounded by them. This isn't exactly the standard setting where you can just circlegrind that stuff.

[Damien]

You said that twice now so I'm just going to confirm something for you bob of west Oregon USA. No one wants to farm these, everyone who plays Efu knows there's next to no reward in fighting wild spawns, as there shouldn't be.

Having us "fear" drow thralls isnt the correct move here. We are then either lead down two channels, one where it makes the entire war idea meaningless because pcs should then stand no chance unless it's something stupid like oh the rest of the army was occupied. Or they get nerfed as soon as the plot needs to move forward, at which point again this makes it all pointless.

Drow spawns were also never this strong, only judicators and dirgesingers were. So this idea of fearing drow is null.

I'm happy for some drow packs to require a mob of pcs fully buffed, as I stated above. My point is both drow and driders are currently not balanced as default spawns. To give a further example have a mob of either fight through everything else in the underdark. They would crush everything. To the point you'd then argue why they haven't overrun the entire badlands/the underdark.

If not then buff orogs, they are so pathetically weak in comparison that it's not logical.

[Silvermoon Dervish]

If I may add my two cents..

I believe even the bread and butter Dread thrall soldier, the drow, should be a fearsome opponent, for the sake of validating things like the Exile Collective, the Covenant, Serena Tower's cyborg experiments, etc. It just devalues the big, dramatic, awe-inspiring fights between these groups (which aren't that big or dramatic but anyway..) if the whole reason they embarked on a desperate/nihilistic/lunatic path which puts them at odds with the rest of the city as much, or moreso than the Dread can just be "crushed" by a few min-maxed PCs. To me, that would just turn all these skirmishes into something gratuitous since in the end they meant nothing besides entertaining people (like me!) who get a kick out of GTA: Sanctuary. I don't mind it either, sometimes, but it's not exactly a thespian storytelling device.

But back to the topic at hand. Which makes more sense? "The enemy has brought into the fold the scourge of the Underdark, and even their most basic experiments have rendered what was a legendary enemy of yore into an ever more puissant soldier! I must fight fire with fire, consequences be damned!" or "Hey Frank, you heard about those drow thralls? Merchant James' paying wicked cash for their psionic swords! Gather up Molly and Billy-Bob and that weird gnome with the spells, we're raiding Traensyr!"

Yes I am guilty of the latter to an extent. Yes I learnt the folly of my actions soon after. In my defense, it were a generally light-hearted PC.

[Damien]

The purpose of those factions and their methodology is to give the factions/setting character. Their methodology are hardly meant to be macguffins to make everyone super powerful, otherwise then we will have/need a system where every faction has one. Then every player has to join a faction. The whole purpose of the setting is keeping everything levelled in realism, and dealing with unconventional matters with unconventional means. The factions are hardly meant to be stronger than any other faction that could be conceived on the surface, only more adapted to the enemy/situation.

This comes back to the point again also, if we are meant to fear thralls, what is the purpose of ilithid, dendar, wardens, etc etc

I'm happy to consider thralls scary from a conceptual perspective, but having them this strong on their own is just silly. It makes everything implausible

[Bacon_Cheese_Burger]

I dont know how tough these drow are, but IMO a regular drow soldier, should be about as tuff as a lvl 8 medium buffed pc. A drider however is a different story.

[zDark Shadowz]

Driders are fine if it weren't for their metagaming AI.

I'd thought originally they had true seeing the way they'd always attack my previous characters while invisible but after playing a druid with stealthy feat and cross-classed hide/Ms, watching driders come from afar trying to step on top of me, exactly where I'm walking/sneaking simply because they killed some ooze or other spawn on the other side of the map is extremely weird.

Don't get me wrong, the 'Go On A Hunt For Survivors' AI or 'Regroup With Others' gives the creatures a lot more life and realism but I'd rather they sat around a campfire toasting marshmallows after a successful kill rather than rampage the length and breadth of whatever area they're in.

As for drow, they're fine as well, it's just an example of specialised characters will deal with them a lot better. In the Battle of Mutulakt, the fourth boat only had two survivors, Karaz Etherion (mine) and some guy with a halberd, Sterr Noss? Not sure what his name was. Everyone else got butchered fast and it ended up being just us two, lvl 7 or 8 at the time, cutting down thrall upon thrall with effective melee tactics as we advanced.

Anyone who has seen Shane Lyonson fight in Seers or Mausoleum should know that being specialised in fighting specific enemies makes a difference. :P

[One_With_Nature]

Bring back drow priestess from efu1 with death magic

[Ironside]

I don't think there is anything really implausible about Enthralled Drow being as strong as they are --

Consider that Ysinode and (until recently) Traensyr are key metropolises in the globe-spanning empire of the Dread.  Consider also, that the enthralled soldiery that defend these two places (the only places in the module where Enthralled Drow will spawn...) are the cream of the crop, deadly and efficient enthralled shock troops crafted from already incredibly skilled killers.

We have had plenty of times where enthralled drow have been cut down in droves by well-equipped Sanctuarians, and inversely plenty of times where the woefully under-equipped were butchered by them. They are one of the few monster groupings in the module that I can say are pretty much perfectly tuned for what they're meant to do.  

We wont be changing them.