Rogue Perks and EFU:R

[Random_White_Guy]

From what I have seen from most PCs there is a lot of talk that reaching Level 8 is a herculean feat these days. To be perfectly honest I would suggest the perks for rogues be altered. As level 5 is the chosen baseline for both Rogue, Sorceror, and now Ranger perks I'd say the following should occur:

Level 5 Rogue Perks are changed to Level 1 perks akin to Fighter/etc allow for immediate pick at start of the PC as how Hemotologists, Crazed Berzerker Barbarians, and more can jump into their perks at level 1.

Meanwhile the level 8 perks are made available at level 5. This gives an automatic boon to merchants, politicians, scouts, spies, and more and allows PCs to fully embrace the perks of their chosen "Profession" and allow more activities in game to come out of these perks.

After all, typically a PC who is dedicated to taking the "Detective Perk" at level 8 is a detective long before he hits level 8, the same with merchants, those who would pursue the thug perk, the shadow perk, and otherwise. By level 8 a Rogue is fairly solidified in his situation and on the whole can handle himself in most situations without the boons of a perk.

Dropping it to level 5 would allow a low level rogue to even the playing-field in a number of endeavors where as Sorcerors, Barbarians, and now Rangers all receive ample boostings at such an early level and at later levels. Rogues always resemble those who find alternatives than the standard to get ahead in life, make money, have special skills, and further to push their agendas. That's why people enjoy having them around.

To simply balance this out that means at level 8 the other classes will still get their large perks at their higher levels, and the Rogues gain the benefit of their perks sooner but then that is the deadline.

I just simply feel that of all the classes with Perks the Rogues are the ones who can gain the most by earlier in their career being able to obtain these talents and bring both immediate use and worth to the endeavors of rogue, as well as their merits to a faction from the IC perspective.

[Bearic]

A similar suggestion has been discussed here: http://www.efupw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82045

[Garem]

Level 8 really isn't THAT hard. Plus, this isn't a cart and horse issue, it's a chicken and egg. Should reputation prelude skills or skills prelude reputation? The former seems as tolerable as the latter.

Maybe inverting the level 8 option and the level 5 option instead would be better? You get powers no sooner, just at different times.

[Talir]

Not going to happen. Please bear in mind that rogue perks stick with you even if you die to level 2. You just need to have gotten to the point where you could pick the perk. This is different from all the other classes.

You can apply for receiving the perk earlier if you believe it'll make for a greater environment all around, or your character is so hooked up into the plots that he rarely is able to earn it otherwise. You can also apply for having other level 5 or even other level 8 perks at the same time. In this way the rogue perks are unique.

Reaching level 5 and 8 is the challenge. Then you reap the benefits of having done that.

And reputation precedes skills.

[Howlando]

The server is awash with level 8 PCs.

[Random_White_Guy]

Fair enough. Lock it I suppose, no need to debate reputation vs. skills.

[Wrexsoul]

I know Talir has already said it's not going to happen, but I'd like to chime in with my five cents anyway.

I comment on this as a player who has almost never, since I started playing on the server in 2006, been level 8. I had it for a single day on Greyfell, if memory serves, before I died and lost it again. Otherwise, the highest my characters have managed to accomplish is level 7. And this is not only because I'm not the best with NWN's mechanics. Chiefly, it's because of my play style - I often have relatively little (in EfU:R, very little) playing time. When I do play, I much prefer to plot, interact with others, organise PC events involving random people on the server, explore, and in other ways further my character's development and goals in various non-mechanically benefitting aspects. This means I don't run a lot of quests. I guess if I ran quest trains (I don't use this term in a derogative sense) I would eventually hit the level too. But as it stands, whenever I log on (which at the moment might be two-three times during a week), I have to choose between questing, or doing all that other stuff that I personally find more interesting. This does not mean I sit in the square RPing all day long - this means I often do right scary and downright dangerous stuff involving other content on the server than scripted quests.

Now, I do quest - It's necessary to gather gold and supplies to survive after all. But all that other stuff I do tends to have very lethal consequences, since it either involves random spawns in dangerous parts of the server, or (if I'm lucky - and I love it to bits when it happens) DM spice. So my xp income/decay tends to balance out to a point well before the 28000 xp you need for level 8. Additionally, since I quest so little, I very, very seldom have any useful consumables at all. I was recently in a stretch of DM quests and spice that was absolutely awesome. But where my companions chugged potions left and right, I had at my disposal two or three blur potions in total over the course of 4 days, one purple crystal (I was given some more by my ICly nice companions), a couple of moderate healing potions, and two potions of invisibility. That was the extent of my life-safer stuff, basically. And being a rogue, I'm among the last in line for the supplies dropped on the quest.

All this added up, I have given up on ever getting to choose a perk for my rogue.

I'm a bit unsure what the reasoning behind keeping it at level 8 is. From what I see, reaching level 8 doesn't really prove anything about having a successful character - Hard drawn, all it means is that you've managed to quest many times in a row without dying (except if you're super awesome and get there by DM xp). Sure, most level 8 players do seem to be cool characters too, but that's because our player base is great, not because of what's required to hit the level.

From what I recall, rogue perks (being the first perks to be added) were added just to give rogues an incentive to stay pure instead of multiclassing, and to patch their relative mechanical lousiness in a server where things turn up to be sneak attack immune left and right. At the moment, they're not even very good stealthers or scouts - At the low loot level we have and most places being outdoors, they're outclassed by rangers and druids. Since the level 8 perks is where the real "power" is at, for my rogue these balancing, necessary perks might as well not exist.

This might have turned a shade rambling - I haven't slept well in a couple of weeks - and it's in no way a complaint about my current situation. I love my character and I love my position on the server, but for someone like me, the level 8 perks might as well not exist. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in being in this situation either.

To not only have this post be a rant about myself, I'd like to suggest something. I have no clue if it's actually possible to implement, but:

How about, instead of the rogue perks requiring specific mechanical levels, they were changed to activate once you had played for a specific time on your character? A certain number of hours, a certain number of resets, or whatever way is possible to measure in scripts. Perhaps they could even be applied for with a simple EfUSL check for that character. This way, it wouldn't be discriminating against those who do a good job with their character, but that for various reasons never hit level 8.

-EDIT- Otherwise, I don't really see the harm in lowering the level requirements. If it was lowered to 7, the people who have an easy time reaching 8 would not miss out (they'd get it soon enough anyway even if it remained the way it is today), and the people who don't would reach it at roughly the same pace as those who easily reach 8 today. I don't see who this would harm, really.

[PlayaCharacter]

I have a hunch that as the server becomes more fleshed out and more content is added this will cease to be an issue. I can't remember any chapter, except perhaps EfU:M, where the first few months weren't tough to level in.

[Wrexsoul]

I have a hunch that as the server becomes more fleshed out and more content is added this will cease to be an issue. I can't remember any chapter, except perhaps EfU:M, where the first few months weren't tough to level in.

As I said, throughout all four chapters, I've been level 8 once. For some of us, it's not that easy (for various reasons). I'm still unsure as to why limiting it in the way it's limited now is cut in stone.

[LiAlH4]

As Talir says,

You can apply for receiving the perk earlier if you believe it'll make  for a greater environment all around, or your character is so hooked up  into the plots that he rarely is able to earn it otherwise. You can also  apply for having other level 5 or even other level 8 perks at the same  time. In this way the rogue perks are unique.

If there extenuating circumstances surrounding your PC, we might make a perk available at a lower level than is normal for most. It will require an application, of course.

[Inquisitor]

It is soooo easy to reach level 8. My PC reached it, died and -respawned- (Which apparently people would sooner rage-quit than do this >.>) and I am close once again to reaching level 8. I'd also like to point out that I on average maybe do two to four quests a week. I couldn't imagine how much faster it'd go with a consistent questing clique or just being able to use sendings.

One of the reasons I stopped playing EFU years ago is because I couldn't devote regular time to playing. This is a community that you have to be available fairly often in, or you can miss a lot. If anything- irregular play times just means you likely have the same opportunity to get XP, but less chance to be involved in plots.